Lake Renegade Crash

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DHC2eater
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Lake Renegade Crash

#1 Post by DHC2eater » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:40 am

On take off from Lake Air Venture.....

It's in the news

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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#2 Post by CL-Skadoo! » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:54 am

Here, let me help you.

http://fox11online.com/news/local/fox-c ... -winnebago
OSHKOSH, Wis. (WLUK/AP) -- A federal investigator says one person from Minnesota has died and another remains in critical condition after a seaplane accident near EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh.
Investigator Dan Baker of the National Transportation Safety Board says the victim died Friday. Winnebago County Chief Deputy Coroner Chris Shea says the woman was a passenger. Her name was not released.
Baker says a third injured person is out of the hospital.
The seaplane hit a wave upon takeoff before it crashed into Lake Winnebago Thursday night, according to a spokesman for the Experimental Aircraft Association.
The plane was taking off from the seaplane base at EAA, which is holding its annual AirVenture fly-in convention this week in Oshkosh.
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pelmet
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#3 Post by pelmet » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:10 pm

Went to the first two days of Oshkosh and it turns out that this is the actual Lake Renegade that was on display with a company proposing to restart the line. An experienced Lake pilot was takling to the rep of the company proposing to start up and apparently, the guy who owns the type certificate is a major problem of some sort.

No personal time on any Lake aircraft but I am working on it 8).

That being said, it has been a very bad year for Lake aircraft....are they particularly difficult to handle. The one I hope to fly will be on land only for now.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#4 Post by waterdog » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:08 am

Hi Pelmet, there is no question that the Lakes have had a horrible year this year, not sure whats going on. I bought my Lake buccaneer in January of this year, after talking extensively to Jim and others, and before I finished my ppl. Once I was done my ppl I took the 25hour course from Lake Central which should be mandatory to fly these planes. I can't imagine trying to fly these with a 5hr float endorsement. I absolutely love the plane but there is no question on the water the consequences can be high. I'm just not sure if they are any higher then a typical float plane since I have no experience with them. Although there has been a fair number of float planes that have flipped this year as well. In think there was two in one day on the same lake up in the NWT.

The scuttlebutt on the Renegade accident is the 82 yr old pilot was advised that the conditions were not favourable for a take off and experienced pilots suggested he wait it out. He chose to go, it appears what got the plane was that the flaps were left up. This info is from the Lake forum and appears to be from people who were there.
In the Lake planes leaving the flaps up is an absolute no no for take off runs as you end up staying on the water until your speed is dangerously fast and are susceptible to waves for that much longer. It seems like the estimates were he was going between 70-80 knots when they hit the wave that launched them into the air. The plane should have been off the water way before that if the flaps were down. I'm off at around 55mph.
From my experience the planes handle short field runs and grass strips really well. They are easy to fly in the air and I find it easier then the Cessna 172 I was training in. On the water the buc is rated up to 1 foot waves, in the course we got into waves in the 2 foot range, its doable but not really fun. I fly up to and land in Muskoka regularly and the hardest takeoffs I've had are when there is no wind, its hot, the plane is heavy and there is a ton of boat traffic. The wind doesn't smooth out the waves and you end up with waves coming in all directions. You end up in taxi mode looking for a bit of shelter from the waves or for the boats to go away. I find landing easier with boat waves as you can easily spot the trouble makers from the air and either wait them out or find a better spot.

I love the idea of having a low centre of gravity and a hull to land on in the event of a forced approach. It gives you the option of safely leaving the gear up and landing on any surface. The downside is that the planes have a lot of drag and do not have the same glide ratio of the Cessna's, especially if you have your gear down.
I've got 50hrs on mine so far ( since April) and absolutely love it, but treat it with a tremendous amount of respect as I am for sure a low time pilot.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#5 Post by linecrew » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:43 am

A sequence of photos can be found here on the Kathryn's Report web site:

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/07/l ... urred.html
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#6 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:02 am

There is a good reason why a flying boat has a wave height restriction from the manufacturer.

If you ignore the wave height restriction you are leaving yourself open to proposing and possible complete loss of control which quite often results in a fatal crash.

There should be a separate rating for flying boats in my opinion.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#7 Post by Cliff Jumper » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:30 pm

What the H is going on with the pitch trim on the left side? In all the pictures... even the parked one, its deflected full up.

Is that normal for take-off in a Lake?

Does that model have two trim tabs or one?
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#8 Post by waterdog » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:03 pm

I'm not sure about the Renegade, the Buc has two trim tabs....but that trim tab seems awfully high. In the 200 the trim is set based on weight and balance.....if you have a more aft load then you need less trim. But even in the most fore loading my tabs never look like that.
No question the flaps are up, which I would suspect would be the cause of the entire thing. If the flaps were down he would have been off the water way sooner and other links in the chain wouldn't have been as critical. With the flaps down, a rogue wave at near flying speed may launch you into the air but you should be able to hold the nose on the horizon and fly out of it.

K

Cat Driver I completely agree with you.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#9 Post by pelmet » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:56 pm

The bad year for Lake aircraft continues.....

"C-GBMP, un appareil de type Lake LA-250 RC-GBMP, un appareil de type Lake LA-250 Renegade en exploitation privée, effectuait une envolée selon les règles de vol à vue depuis Montmagny, QC (CSE5) avec le pilote et 3 passagers à bord. Alors que l'appareil se trouvait à son altitude de croisière à 2 miles marins à l'ouest de l'aéroport de St-Jean Chrysostome, QC (CSG5), le moteur (Avco Lycoming IO-540-C4B5) s'est subitement arrêté sans aucun avertissement alors que la température et la pression moteur étaient dans les limites prescrites. Le pilote n'a pas réussi à joindre la piste de CSG5 et a exécuté un
atterrissage forcé dans un champ après avoir déclaré une urgence. Le pilote a subi des blessures mineures alors que les passagers n'ont pas été blessés. L'appareil a subi des dommages importants.enegade en exploitation privée, effectuait une
envolée selon les règles de vol à vue depuis Montmagny, QC (CSE5) avec le pilote et 3 passagers à bord. Alors que l'appareil se trouvait à son altitude de croisière à 2 miles marins à l'ouest de l'aéroport de St-Jean Chrysostome, QC (CSG5), le moteur (Avco Lycoming IO-540-C4B5) s'est subitement arrêté sans aucun avertissement alors que la température et la pression moteur étaient dans les limites prescrites. Le pilote n'a pas réussi à joindre la piste de CSG5 et a exécuté un atterrissage forcé dans un champ après avoir déclaré une urgence. Le pilote a subi des blessures mineures alors que les passagers n'ont pas été blessés. L'appareil a subi des dommages importants."


GOOGLE Translated...


"C-GBMP, a Lake LA-250 RC-GBMP aircraft, a LA-250 Renegade Lake-type aircraft operating privately, Flight under visual flight rules from Montmagny, QC (CSE5) with the pilot and 3 passengers on board. While the aircraft was at its cruising altitude 2 nautical miles west of St-Jean Chrysostome Airport, QC (CSG5), the engine (Avco Lycoming IO-540-C4B5) Suddenly stopped without any warning while the engine temperature and pressure were Within the prescribed limits. The pilot failed to reach the CSG5 runway and Forced landing in a field after declaring an emergency. The pilot sustained injuries While the passengers were not injured. Damaged product Important in the private sector. Flight under visual flight rules from Montmagny, QC (CSE5) with the pilot and 3 passengers on board. While the aircraft was at its cruising altitude 2 nautical miles west of St-Jean Chrysostome Airport, QC (CSG5), the engine (Avco Lycoming IO-540-C4B5) Suddenly stopped without any warning while the engine temperature and pressure were Within the prescribed limits. The pilot failed to reach the CSG5 runway and Forced landing in a field after declaring an emergency. The pilot sustained injuries While the passengers were not injured. Damaged product important."
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#10 Post by pelmet » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:00 am

And now a Buccaneer near Cornwall......

http://www.cornwallnewswatch.com/2017/0 ... mmerstown/

Leave it to the media to come up with another example showing how you can't believe much that they say(fake news is it?)....

.....they said that is was a '"Buckeneer" C-plane'.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#11 Post by Mick G » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:22 am

Cat Driver wrote:There is a good reason why a flying boat has a wave height restriction from the manufacturer.

If you ignore the wave height restriction you are leaving yourself open to proposing and possible complete loss of control which quite often results in a fatal crash.

There should be a separate rating for flying boats in my opinion.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#12 Post by youhavecontrol » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:06 pm

Is the pitch control on those things as squirrely as I imagine it to be when you make power changes? I have always loved the Lake Buccaneer and I'm pretty jealous of our technician who flies one. At take-off, with the power on top and drag on the bottom, I imagine the pitch/power relationship would be a complicated one to get used to at first.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#13 Post by pelmet » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:35 pm

pelmet wrote:And now a Buccaneer near Cornwall......

http://www.cornwallnewswatch.com/2017/0 ... mmerstown/

Leave it to the media to come up with another example showing how you can't believe much that they say(fake news is it?)....

.....they said that is was a '"Buckeneer" C-plane'.

"C-GAOT, a privately operated Lake LA-4-200 aircraft, was conducting a local flight from Cornwall Regional, ON (CYCC). The aircraft was observed flying at a low altitude before it crashed into a wooded area approximately one nautical mile south of CYCC. There was no ELT signal, however the wreckage was located a few hours after the crash when the rotating beacon was spotted from an adjacent road. The pilot was seriously injured and the aircraft was substantially damaged."
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#14 Post by waterdog » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:38 pm

youhavecontrol wrote:Is the pitch control on those things as squirrely as I imagine it to be when you make power changes?
Not at all!
This is the first summer I’ve had in my Buc and I’ve got around 80hrs on it so far. The nose does not go skyward when you cut the power nor does it point vertical when you add power.
The plane does produce a lot of drag tho and if you get behind the power/drag curve you can get in trouble.
Engine failures require immediate nose down attitude, not because the nose pitches up violently but because the drag is so high you need to in order to establish a glide speed before you get behind the curve.
But no doubt it has been a horrible year for Lakes!
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#15 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:45 pm

The Lake amphibians are delightful little machines to fly as long as you understand the physics ( Both aerodynamic and hydrodynamic ) involved in handling a flying boat.

Before flying one you must find a competent flying boat instructor or you just may end up wrecking it or worse.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#16 Post by pelmet » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:27 am

Cat Driver wrote:The Lake amphibians are delightful little machines to fly as long as you understand the physics ( Both aerodynamic and hydrodynamic ) involved in handling a flying boat.

Before flying one you must find a competent flying boat instructor or you just may end up wrecking it or worse.
Or just fly it on land. I may have an opportunity to do so soon. Looking forward to it.
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Re: Lake Renegade Crash

#17 Post by waterdog » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:31 pm

Cat Driver wrote:The Lake amphibians are delightful little machines to fly as long as you understand the physics ( Both aerodynamic and hydrodynamic ) involved in handling a flying boat.

Before flying one you must find a competent flying boat instructor or you just may end up wrecking it or worse.

+1
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