Sunwing hits the lights

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pelmet
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Sunwing hits the lights

#1 Post by pelmet » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:58 pm

Was posted on another thread so I thought I might move it here...

Incident: Sunwing B738 at Belfast on Jul 21st 2017, overran runway on takeoff

A Sunwing Airlines Boeing 737-800 on behalf of Thomson Airways, registration C-FWGH performing flight BY-1526 from Belfast Aldergrove,NI (UK) to Kerkyra (Greece) with 186 people on board, was accelerating for takeoff from Belfast's runway 07 when the crew detected problems with the acceleration of the aircraft and re-selected TOGA prior to beginning takeoff rotation. During the initial climb the crew selected max continuous thrust and power adjusted accordingly. ATC reported the aircraft had an unusually long takeoff run. The aircraft continued the flight and landed in Kerkyra without further incident.

The Canadian TSB reported that a runway inspection found an approach light for runway 25 bent over.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#2 Post by FICU » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:31 am

Scary!

Selecting TO/GA will not increase thrust as the auto-throttles are in a hold mode and can only me moved manually. By the sounds of the report they continued the take-off with de-rated thrust and no one actually moved the thrust levers to increase power when they realized they weren't accelerating normally.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#3 Post by pelmet » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:44 pm

FICU wrote:Scary!

Selecting TO/GA will not increase thrust as the auto-throttles are in a hold mode and can only me moved manually. By the sounds of the report they continued the take-off with de-rated thrust and no one actually moved the thrust levers to increase power when they realized they weren't accelerating normally.
Selecting TO/GA will remove the thrust derates and ATM once airborne.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

rudder
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#4 Post by rudder » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:53 pm

pelmet wrote:
FICU wrote:Scary!

Selecting TO/GA will not increase thrust as the auto-throttles are in a hold mode and can only me moved manually. By the sounds of the report they continued the take-off with de-rated thrust and no one actually moved the thrust levers to increase power when they realized they weren't accelerating normally.
Will selecting TO/GA not remove the ATM reduction?
Above 84kts the A/T goes in to THR HLD mode. Engines respond to thrust lever movement only until airborne (800 RA)
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Last edited by rudder on Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#5 Post by FICU » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:00 pm

It moves the bugs on the N1 gauges but the A/T are in hold mode. TO/GA is selected once at the start of the take-off roll and the A/T move to the selected N1 then hold around 80 KIAS. If more thrust is needed they must be moved manually. I think Boeing designed it to take the computer out of the equation(inadvertent roll back or increase) during such a critical phase and to leave it in the pilot's hands.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#6 Post by BTD » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:14 pm

If the Air Florida accident taught us anything, it is If acceleration or climb performance isn't right, and you can't get it stopped, grab the thrust levers and stuff them full forward. At least for anything with fadec. And if no fadec, set max continuous.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#7 Post by goingnowherefast » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:24 pm

If your life depends on it, you can push a PT6 to the stops as well. No FADEC required. You might need to overhaul the the engines afterwards, but at least they'll still have the core value and an airframe. No liability to pay out for your dead ass either.

I'd imagine the same is true for most turbine engines.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#8 Post by FICU » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:31 pm

Another case of pilots not manually moving the thrust levers... this time in a rejected landing...
5 seconds after the aircraft became airborne again tower instructed the flight crew to continue straight ahead and climb to 4000 feet. The instruction was correctly read back. Both flight crew members noticed the decaying speed, the first officer called "CHECK SPEED". The thrust levers were moved from IDLE to full forward, the autothrottle system transitioned from IDLE to THRUST mode.

The GCAA reported that the aircraft slid on the ground over 800 meters with the landing gear not yet in the fully up position.
http://avherald.com/h?article=49c12302&opt=0

This one resulted in a hull loss.

Children of automation!
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#9 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:10 am

BTD wrote:If the Air Florida accident taught us anything, it is If acceleration or climb performance isn't right, and you can't get it stopped, grab the thrust levers and stuff them full forward. At least for anything with fadec. And if no fadec, set max continuous.
Thrust levers full forward if required was a Boeing approved procedure on the 737-300 (non fadec).
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#10 Post by BTD » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:31 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
BTD wrote:If the Air Florida accident taught us anything, it is If acceleration or climb performance isn't right, and you can't get it stopped, grab the thrust levers and stuff them full forward. At least for anything with fadec. And if no fadec, set max continuous.
Thrust levers full forward if required was a Boeing approved procedure on the 737-300 (non fadec).

I initially misread your post, so I responsed as below. But I'll leave it there because it is good information.

Below is from the air Florida accident report findings.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/m ... da_inc.pdf

27. The aircraft could not sustain flight because of the combined effects of airframe snow or ice
contamination which degraded lift and increased drag and the lower than normal thrust set by reference to the erroneous EPR indications. Either condition alone should not have prevented continued flight.
28. Continuation of flight should have been possible immediately after stickshaker activation if appropriate pitch control had been used and maximum available thrust had been added. While the flightcrew did add appropriate pitch control, they did not add thrust in time to prevent impact.



If you are that close to the edge, max available may be the only means to stay airborne. Respect the shaker, and hopefully you will climb, if not, you better find something else to do quickly.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#11 Post by Future_Sunwing_pilot » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:25 pm

Was there any damage to the aircraft?
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#12 Post by pelmet » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:20 am

WOW......

Talk about getting a detailed preliminary report out very quickly. Perhaps our TSB could learn a thing or twenty.

Haven't had time to read more than a couple of paragraphs as I have to go flying. Let me know what the details are.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... C-FWGH.pdf
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#13 Post by FICU » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:38 am

Burned up 3/4 of the runway before realizing they weren't accelerating properly, rotated with about 1000 feet of runway left, struck an approach light with a tire which was 35 cm high 29 m beyond the end of the runway in the stopway, was at 40 feet AGL 500 feet from the threshold markings, and didn't advance the thrust levers manually until airborne and 800 feet AGL.

Temperature at top of climb was entered into the FMC rather than OAT(a figure of - 52°C as opposed to +16°C) which gave a N1 of 81.5 when 93.3 was required.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#14 Post by Victory » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:06 am

Why does it require you to enter the temperature at top of climb at all?
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#15 Post by ahramin » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:21 am

Top of climb temperature is required for performance predictions, the most critical of which in the climb are your optimum and maximum altitudes.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#16 Post by Victory » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:28 am

Ok, thanks. Would they be entered on the same page?

I'm kind of surprised you have to enter the current OAT at all and not just have the aircraft enter that automatically. Though there are probably reasons it has to be entered manually.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#17 Post by FICU » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:58 pm

In the 737-300(Classic) we enter ISA deviation and not actual temperature at top of climb. It's entered on a different page than take-off thrust OAT/assumed temperatures on the FMC.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#18 Post by ahramin » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:34 pm

Victory wrote:I'm kind of surprised you have to enter the current OAT at all and not just have the aircraft enter that automatically. Though there are probably reasons it has to be entered manually.
Remember that when talking about the 737, even a new one, we're talking a lot of 50 year old tech. Some NGs (and the Max) now have a temperature probe that works on the ground, most don't.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#19 Post by pelmet » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:40 pm

ahramin wrote:
Victory wrote:I'm kind of surprised you have to enter the current OAT at all and not just have the aircraft enter that automatically. Though there are probably reasons it has to be entered manually.
Remember that when talking about the 737, even a new one, we're talking a lot of 50 year old tech. Some NGs (and the Max) now have a temperature probe that works on the ground, most don't.
Even on much more modern Boeing's, the OAT has to be manually entered.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#20 Post by Eric Janson » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:17 pm

FICU wrote:Burned up 3/4 of the runway before realizing they weren't accelerating properly, rotated with about 1000 feet of runway left, struck an approach light with a tire which was 35 cm high 29 m beyond the end of the runway in the stopway, was at 40 feet AGL 500 feet from the threshold markings, and didn't advance the thrust levers manually until airborne and 800 feet AGL.

Temperature at top of climb was entered into the FMC rather than OAT(a figure of - 52°C as opposed to +16°C) which gave a N1 of 81.5 when 93.3 was required.
The response to the recognition of the problem was extremely poor imho.

All that was needed was a simple push on the Thrust Levers - but that didn't happen to 800'.

You should know the approximate N1 for a reduced Take-off and also the initial rate of climb. If you're not getting either then increasing the thrust is the first thing that should be done imho. Once safely airborne with some altitude then you can have a close look at what is going on.

I've seen it at a previous employer - everything is in the green so everything is fine. Just because there are no amber or red indications does not mean that everything is fine.
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Re: Sunwing hits the lights

#21 Post by atphat » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:54 pm

“Preliminary evidence indicated that, after the aircraft lifted off from the runway, one of the aircraft tyres struck a runway approach light, which was 35 cm high and 29 m beyond the end of the runway.“
:shock: :shock: :shock:
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