Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

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pelmet
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#26 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 am

pelmet wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:42 am
I have mentioned a policy at my company. Who knows, this thread could save 583 lives(the Tenerife toll). I think that is a little more important than keeping a company policy(or lack of) secret. Maybe it is time to decide what is more important. Your family could be the ones riding on Zed tickets somewhere for a vacation when someone from another carrier doesn't hold short due distractions from unnecessary after landing procedures being performed at an inappropriate time.
Rockie wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:05 am
But telling you specifically what our procedures are isn't going to make anything safer. If you really want to know what our procedures are I'll give you an address at flight operations you can write to and ask.
I suppose then...you have made your decision.

Thanks for the offer to give an address to me.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#27 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:25 am

Decision? What decision is that?

The thing about procedures is that once you design a procedure to protect yourself from something life comes along and shifts the goal posts a few feet to render that solution inadequate. Like I said it's a constant battle. I applaud your efforts to generate safety related discussions Pelmet, but your focus on Air Canada here is missplaced when the problem effects everybody.
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altiplano
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#28 Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:57 am

I think Rockie is right that: "the problem affects everybody."

I think that Pelmet is right that: "Perhaps there is a rushed feeling to fully exit the runway while still planning to hold short of the parallel and the hold short line appears while still moving fairly quickly."

So you end up cruising by a hold line which is 25-50 meters earlier - up to half a football field - than what you typically see. The picture is different than usual. You're still well back from the standard 90meters possibly expecting another line just ahead?

I would be interested to know how far over the line these incursions typically are? Maybe Cliff Jumper knows? And why doesn't Nav Canada change the marking to a standard distance? Put in an embedded, lit stop bar? How much you want to bet it would stop the incursions? Or does the GTAA need another bobble or display in the terminal instead?
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#29 Post by Cliff Jumper » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:47 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:57 am
why doesn't Nav Canada put in an embedded, lit stop bar? How much you want to bet it would stop the incursions?
I'll take the bet, for as much money as you feel like donating (pick a charity of your choice).

I don't know how to reiterate without sounding condescending.

They already do, and have had for more than a decade.

Google Earth?
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#30 Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:21 pm

The 'bet' comment was a figure of speech. Certainly you can never completely stop every eventuality.

Instead of being condescending how about joining the conversation on how to solve it? Again, I'll reiterate... multiple experienced professionals made the same mistake, guys who were trying their best and wanted to do a good job. Why did they miss the line? Were they just reckless F-ups?

Do you believe the layout can't somehow be improved?

I don't remember red stop bars embedded? Are you saying they are there? Maybe my memory is faulty, I don't take notes...

Can you answer my questions?

Why isn't the hold line placement standard?

How much over the stop line were the incursions?
Did anyone get onto the runway? Or just past the line and still less than the 90meter ICAO standard?
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#31 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:41 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:21 pm
Instead of being condescending how about joining the conversation on how to solve it? Again, I'll reiterate... multiple experienced professionals made the same mistake, guys who were trying their best and wanted to do a good job. Why did they miss the line?
I think I have already answered that with a viable theory. Of course we have had the usual circling of wagons with accusations that I am focusing on AC but the other two airlines used as examples in this thread almost certainly don't have pilots on this forum to ask about their procedures. So I thought our AC guys could help resolve the very important question you keep asking. Unfortunately, they are not willing to participate.

Hold short lines can be in various locations. According to my Jepp chart for YYZ, there are even hold short lines on 24R/06L to hold short of the approach on 33R. But if you aren't looking for them, you won't see them. The question is...what is distractihg pilots enough to not see painted lines with hold short lights and wig-wags. I understand that the pilot taxiing might be concentrating on taxiing but what is the PNF/PM doing to miss this sort of thing. See my earlier posts as a possibility.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#32 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:57 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:41 pm
So I thought our AC guys could help resolve the very important question you keep asking. Unfortunately, they are not willing to participate.
AC's procedures are consistent with other airlines, spelling them out to you will not answer the question why there have been excursions. You'd have to read an investigative report to know that which I haven't. Maybe when you ask our ops to tell you our procedures they'll also tell you what they've found in that regard.

It's not an unwillingness to participate, it's an unwillingness to answer specific questions about our procedures especially when it gains nothing but pointlessly opening AC up to criticism from the peanut gallery.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#33 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:04 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:57 pm
AC's procedures are consistent with other airlines, spelling them out to you will not answer the question why there have been excursions. You'd have to read an investigative report to know that which I haven't.
I have my doubts about that. There are likely many differences from airline to airline when it come to "procedures". Anyways, we're not going to get the requested info from you or others and that is what it is. And one certainly doesn't need to read a report to come up with a viable reason in general for a situation like this.

As a further note....I have just looked at Google earth as suggested and see that the enhanced taxiway centerline markings are also used to notify the crew of an approaching hold short line. The only answer I can come up with is "not aware/forgot/not looking".

These things can happen. Back in my private pilot days, I crossed an active runway without clearance more than 20 years ago due to forgetting to hold short. I could get defensive and make excuses but the reality is....I forgot.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#34 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:34 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:04 pm
I have my doubts about that.
Feel free to doubt all you like without benefit of any facts whatsoever. Knowing our procedures would bring you no closer to understanding why a crew would cross the hold line at AC any more than it would some other carrier. If whatever procedures had been followed in any of these incidents they wouldn't have happened don't you think? Unless you think AC's procedures are to ignore ATC instructions...
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#35 Post by Cliff Jumper » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:56 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:45 am

Is there a written procedure at your company stating that the after landing flow/checklist can only be done such as after receiving a clearance to taxi in from ground? This is how it is done where I work.
I'm not into fighting on avcanada, or picking sides, but I'm genuinely interested in this procedure, that you say is already in place. Could you provide the exact verbiage? or a copy of the page? you can redact the name to remain anonymous.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#36 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:35 pm

Cliff Jumper wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:56 pm
pelmet wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:45 am

Is there a written procedure at your company stating that the after landing flow/checklist can only be done such as after receiving a clearance to taxi in from ground? This is how it is done where I work.
I'm not into fighting on avcanada, or picking sides, but I'm genuinely interested in this procedure, that you say is already in place. Could you provide the exact verbiage? or a copy of the page? you can redact the name to remain anonymous.
Like most companies, we have an ops manual. As well, there are memos on certain procedures the company wants us to follow. Part of the statement on vacating runways in the manual states..."No switch or lever shall be repositioned after landing until clear of the active runway unless necessary for the safe control of the aircraft." After a incident similar to what has been posted on this thread involving close parallel runways with a hold short clearance which was caused by the captain becoming distracted by the copilot operating the landing lights, a memo was produced about including close parallel runways being included in this practice. Therefore in my experience we always have a taxi clearance prior to the after landing flow. It is just the way it always works out.

Based on the non-answers I got from Rockie(which actually are a fairly clear answer), that alone is different from the procedure at his airline. Of course there are other major airlines that have significant differences in procedures as we all know. I could name one or two off the top of my head but it is pointless to the discussion of how to prevent incusions.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#37 Post by cossack » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm

Hold lines are 200' from the runway edge. ICAO does refer to distances from the runway centreline, but since some runways are 150'/45m wide and others (incl. YYZ) are 200'/60m wide, I don't believe that distance is used. If the distances at YYZ are more than this, then that's down to the GTAA, as its their airport.

I've said this before: there are lit red stop bars at every exit from 06R/24L which are on maximum brilliancy during the day and one setting higher than all other lights at night.

If the hold line is a few metres (not 25-50m) closer than expected, there is still no excuse for not seeing the lit bar. Most of the incursions are at speeds of less than 15kt after a correct readback of the "hold short" instruction which tells me that you know there's a line coming up but for some reason, at the most critical time, you weren't looking outside.

The stop bars are alarmed and the incursions are usually less than an aircraft length over the line as a further "stop" instruction is issued.

All the controllers here have had aircraft call 121.9 while between the runways even though no frequency change was given.
We've heard calls to company frequency on guard from an aircraft in between the runways, sometimes while the aircraft is still moving. Really! You have to make that call right now?

The D6 exit from 24L is shorter than the others so that line can creep up on you but since it 8000' down a 9000' runway, you're not going in there at 50kt.

Fly safe and taxi safe.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#38 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:03 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:35 pm
Based on the non-answers I got from Rockie(which actually are a fairly clear answer), that alone is different from the procedure at his airline.
You apparently missed the part where I said our procedures are consistent with other operators, and that includes yours. You are also missing the fact that despite those procedures these events still happen suggesting that something caused those procedures to either not be followed, or ineffective under the specific circumstance.

What? You think your company is unique Pelmet? Your company alone has it all figured out?
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#39 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:04 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:03 pm
What? You think your company is unique Pelmet? Your company alone has it all figured out?
Looks like I do anyways...Merry Christmas.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#40 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:09 pm

pelmet wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:04 pm
Looks like I do anyways...Merry Christmas.
So you think...until you don't.

Merry Christmas to you too.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#41 Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:16 pm

I can't believe I've never noticed illuminated red stop bar lights embedded in the taxiway... I guess I was always too busy paying attention and holding short...

Anyway Merry Christmas. To more awareness and safe flying and taxiing in 2018.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#42 Post by Cliff Jumper » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:36 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:16 pm
I can't believe I've never noticed illuminated red stop bar lights embedded in the taxiway... I guess I was always too busy paying attention and holding short...
That's good info... you never noticed them, and I'm assuming neither did the crews that crossed them. It's not just some foolish distracted crews, it's you too (no insult intended, we're all human).
cossack wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:38 pm

If the hold line is a few metres (not 25-50m) closer than expected, there is still no excuse for not seeing the lit bar.

The D6 exit from 24L is shorter than the others so that line can creep up on you but since it 8000' down a 9000' runway, you're not going in there at 50kt.
Google Earth shows all the lines are exactly 115m from the centerline, with the exception of D6, which is ~140m. They are 25m-50m further from the runway compared to normal.

But, it's not about making excuses. Everyone seems to get wrapped up in that idea. I'm sure none of the crews who went over the line felt that 'it was someone else's fault'; and, I don't think the solution to make everything safer is to get those crews to just admit they screwed the pooch. How would that help? Should those crews just be fired, and then problem solved?

In contrast however, understanding why those crews made that mistake, might actually lead to improvement.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#43 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:57 pm

The stop bars between 24L and 24R are immediately after the turn from the high speed and are not visible until late. As Pelmet alluded to before getting fixated on AC’s procedures, a line of red taxiway centreline lights leading up to the corner would go a long way towards reinforcing to the crew as they clear the landing runway that they need to stop.

Everything about flying and the operational side of airports has evolved over the years to accommodate human factors. This is no different.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#44 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:07 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:57 pm
As Pelmet alluded to before getting fixated on AC’s procedures,
Or lack thereof.....
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#45 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:12 pm

What do you base this fantasy on Pelmet besides a dislike of me? You are publicly suggesting a serious deficiency in a large company’s procedures based on what exactly?
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#46 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:20 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:57 pm
The stop bars between 24L and 24R are immediately after the turn from the high speed and are not visible until late. As Pelmet alluded to before getting fixated on AC’s procedures, a line of red taxiway centreline lights leading up to the corner would go a long way towards reinforcing to the crew as they clear the landing runway that they need to stop.
Actually, this is incorrect. One will just as likely have to stop(hold short) even if the red lights are not illuminated. It has nothing to do with a clearance/ATC instruction to hold short of a runway and its greatest potential benefit comes into play when one has a clearance to cross a runway.

You do understand how RWSL works don't you?
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#47 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:23 pm

Well I’m pretty new at this but let’s see if I can suss it out. Red lights mean stop...is that right Pelmet? Do I have that wrong?
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#48 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:33 pm

Rockie wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:23 pm
Well I’m pretty new at this this but let’s see if I can suss it out. Red lights mean stop...is that right Pelmet?
Good cover. Anyways, bottom line......as mentioned earlier, no distracting stuff until clear of both runways. I know it sounds basic but this earlier quote says it all...

"All the controllers here have had aircraft call 121.9 while between the runways even though no frequency change was given. We've heard calls to company frequency on guard from an aircraft in between the runways, sometimes while the aircraft is still moving. Really! You have to make that call right now?"

Somebody wanted answers as to why this keeps on happening. Now you know why and it has nothing to do with markings.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#49 Post by Rockie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:39 pm

Can you cite an investigation that shows that as the reason these events happened? And while you’re at it maybe you can show us definitive proof that runway and taxiway markings are ineffective at informing crews about what’s ahead of them.
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Re: Pilots warned to stay alert for Toronto incursion risks

#50 Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:50 pm

There is obviously more to it for "pelmet"...

Good luck...
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