Should you retract a second time?

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pelmet
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Should you retract a second time?

#1 Post by pelmet » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:51 pm

"C-GPBR, an Aerospatiale ATR 72-202 aircraft operated by Calm Air, was conducting IFR flight CAV771 from Churchill, MB (CYYQ) to Winnipeg/James Armstrong Richardson Intl, MB (CYWG). During the first 100 feet of the takeoff roll at CYYQ, the aircraft rolled at slow speed through a dip in the runway surface. When the landing gear was selected up after takeoff, the nose landing gear indicator showed in transit. The flight crew extended the landing gear and on the second retraction, the nose landing gear indicator showed in transit again. The flight crew carried out the Landing Gear Retraction Impossible checklist procedure and extended the landing gear. The fuel consumption was reassessed and the flight diverted to Thompson, MB (CYTH) with a cruising altitude of 16 000 feet en route. The flight crew executed a low pass at CYTH to allow visual observation by the operator’s maintenance.

Maintenance staff observed that the nose landing gear gravel guard was damaged, while the wheel and strut appeared to be undamaged. The flight landed at CYTH without further incident. The operator's maintenance inspection determined that the gravel guard was bent backwards and had prevented full retraction of the nose landing gear. The gravel guard was replaced, the nose landing gear system was inspected and landing gear swings were carried out before the aircraft was returned to service."


While there were no adverse consequences to a second retraction attempt here...I wonder if it is a good idea seeing as the knew that they had a significant impact on the nosegear during the takeoff roll. It might be an idea to consider that retracting it again could have it hang up at destination.
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daedalusx
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#2 Post by daedalusx » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:06 pm

Agreed.

Leave it alone and coming back sounds like a much better alternative to a possible gear collapse...
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Donald
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#3 Post by Donald » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:32 pm

pelmet wrote:During the first 100 feet of the takeoff roll at CYYQ, the aircraft rolled at slow speed through a dip in the runway surface.

[snip]


I wonder if it is a good idea seeing as the knew that they had a significant impact on the nosegear during the takeoff roll. It might be an idea to consider that retracting it again could have it hang up at destination.

Bit of an assumption on your part, and I'll make one of my own, I'm guessing it wasn't the first time the crew had departed Churchill?
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Bolter
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#4 Post by Bolter » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:29 am

Follow the checklist/QRH. Some aircraft allow you to cycle the gear, others don't.
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#5 Post by trey kule » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:28 am

I found the mention of rolling through a small dip in the runway interesting, and noting that it was done at slow speed.

I would not think the dip just appearred. Anybody with experience at that airport know about the shallow dip?

When I see inclusions like this in an incident report, it sets off my spidey sensors.
Surprising that if there was a dip with that much potential to damage an aircraft at slow speed, it was not published somewhere
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#6 Post by av8ts » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:22 am

Bolter wrote:Follow the checklist/QRH. Some aircraft allow you to cycle the gear, others don't.
Agreed. Don't make it up as you go along. Follow your SOP/QRH
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#7 Post by GyvAir » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:26 am

In the absence of an SOP/checklist, I would say do not try again. Whatever is keeping the gear from retracting can easily prevent it extending, as well. I’ve seen gear hung up in the gear well due to bent or poorly rigged doors, improperly manufactured tires, broken hose clamps, etc. Force it past the obstruction and it may just get hooked on it, preventing it coming down, or causing further damage. Wasn’t there a thread here a year or two ago, about a hammer preventing the gear coming down on a Buffalo machine?
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#8 Post by fish4life » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:45 pm

Unless its slush/ snow during that time of the year messing with a sensor... I've seen that many times.
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pelmet
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#9 Post by pelmet » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:23 pm

av8ts wrote:
Bolter wrote:Follow the checklist/QRH. Some aircraft allow you to cycle the gear, others don't.
Agreed. Don't make it up as you go along. Follow your SOP/QRH
I suspect that if something on this gear became damaged during the takeoff roll, that it was fairly firm and noticeable impact. The checklist to retract the gear is unlikely meant to be for retracting damaged gear as opposed to something such as a switch or sensor malfunction.

I am not saying that I would have ended up doing differently in the same situation but looking at it now, I suggest that one has to make a decision first whether or not they actually want to retract the gear before blindly following the checklist to actually attempt to retract the gear. If there has been a significant impact on takeoff and it didn't retract the first time, start thinking about why and what the options are and what could happen if the gear is retracted.

It's easy to always say...follow SOP but what is the SOP we are talking about. Deciding to keep the gear down for a valid reason is not making things up as you go along.
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Re: Should you retract a second time?

#10 Post by Donald » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:43 pm

trey kule wrote:I found the mention of rolling through a small dip in the runway interesting, and noting that it was done at slow speed.

I would not think the dip just appearred. Anybody with experience at that airport know about the shallow dip?

When I see inclusions like this in an incident report, it sets off my spidey sensors.
Surprising that if there was a dip with that much potential to damage an aircraft at slow speed, it was not published somewhere
The small dip in Churchill was probably easier on the aircraft than the entire ramp and runway surface at Thompson.
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