Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

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pelmet
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pelmet »

atphat wrote: I’ll have to admit most of your posts for me are tldr. Seriously though. Your airline experience comes from laptops?
TLDR...Too Long Didn't Read.

Never heard that one before. Sorry for making the posts so long. There may have been some sarcasm in a couple of statements that I made in earlier posts based on what others had posted about me. Your TLDR tendency may mean that you are not finishing a lot of posts on these threads and therefore only partially aware of the reasons for a certain occasional sarcastic comment.

It would be preferable to get a post with someone having good experience with QFE ops to make some suggestions on here to prevent a future accident than people complaining about their short attention span.

Any suggestions?
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by confusedalot »

used QFE when flying to Sheretmyeyo (Moscow)

No big deal, so what does QFE prove? In meters no less.

Guys, get a grip. Soooo many have been there and done that on this board.

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Eric Janson
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by Eric Janson »

My company does not allow use of QFE.

We need to set QNH and convert as required.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by FICU »

pelmet wrote:
atphat wrote:It would be preferable to get a post with someone having good experience with QFE ops to make some suggestions on here to prevent a future accident...
The first time I flew into Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky, Russia(over 15 years ago) was in a Learjet at night in the pouring rain. Look up the arrivals/approaches, before there were RNAV waypoints, into that cold war air base and the terrain in the vicinity of the airport.

We used paper charts to convert meters to feet for Russian airspace and millimetres to hectopascals for QFE which we got from the tower on final approach. Not rocket science just preparation, attention to detail, good crew briefings, good situational awareness, and good CRM.

Qualities and practices expected of all crews.
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pelmet
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pelmet »

Thanks for the replies.
FICU wrote: The first time I flew into Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky, Russia(over 15 years ago) was in a Learjet at night in the pouring rain.
A bit off subject but I guess it proves that once in a while, those Russian forecasts of CB's in every TAF are accurate. Even in the dead of winter, they love to put CB's in the forecast in Russia.

Today's Petropavlovsk metar and forecast on a cool fall day....

METAR: UHPP 030200Z 33006MPS 9999 FEW046 12/07 Q0997 R34L/190060 NOSIG

TAF: UHPP 022255Z 0300/0406 32003G10MPS 9999 BKN030CB TEMPO 0300/0308 18003G12MPS -SHRA BKN011 OVC020CB FM030800 01003MPS 5000 BR BKN011 TEMPO 0308/0322 0700 FG VV002 FM040000 23003G12MPS 9999 SCT030CB
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by complexintentions »

A nice summary of the current environment at the incident airline. Maybe pelmet can jump on the thread at PPRune and set him straight about the effects of declining experience.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/46728 ... es-10.html
Once again a close call and luckily there is no smoking hole in the ground. Once again management take absolutely no responsibility for being in any way part of the problem. EK was a great company to work for but is rapidly becoming a bit of a joke within the industry.

EK has dined on other company’s failings, they are happy to replace experienced staff with pilots about to lose their jobs elsewhere. They use this ethos to avoid maintaining a remuneration package that would attract experienced pilots. As a result the experienced pilots within the company leave, and the subsequent void is becoming ever more evident.

The downhill slide over the last ten or so years seemed to accelerate in the last few years when management were faced with a severe decline in qualified pilot applicants. Rather than address the problem a psychopath in senior management embarked on a new strategy of significantly lowering the requirements, along with a load of other budgetary cuts and silly shortcuts to get bums on seats including sackings if one did not agree with him. His minions had no choice but to go along with his crazy ideas and his boss let him because in the short term it was more bonus for him and his management team.

The deteriorating conditions (in many aspects of the overall package) subsequently ensured an exodus of very experienced pilots without a care in the world registered by the 9th floor, I’m sure they figured they were saving more money. 521 was swept under the carpet with more close calls taking place on the line subsequently, yet the cost of experience appears unquantifiable from a management viewpoint which seems set on operating in compartments with minimum cost being the sole directive from above.

The last few years has seen some irrational events happening on EK aeroplanes that in the past would have been unthinkable. Remember the planes haven’t changed, it’s the company management that has taken the decision of changing its working practices toward its staff that has led to the rest of the aviation industry questioning whether they would really want to work for such an airline. I thought things were bad when I left but according to a relative still there, it’s gotten much worse.

Good luck folks, stay safe out there.
Keep picking at the small picture if you want, this is the big one.
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pelmet
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pelmet »

complexintentions wrote:A nice summary of the current environment at the incident airline. Maybe pelmet can jump on the thread at PPRune and set him straight about the effects of declining experience.
Hey I've got an idea. Instead of whining, why don't you actually do something useful to try an prevent near tragedies. You could start by telling us about your experience with QFE(I assume you flew to Russia as you claim you worked at EK) and pass on some knowledge on what we should be careful about.

The bottom line is......no matter how correct you are in your posts on this thread(and for the sake of helping improve safety I will just accept what you have previously posted), what you have posted won't help any of the pilots out there reading this thread who could go to a QFE airport tomorrow and might like some advice to prevent themselves from having the same result as that Airbus.

Once again, I am trying to re-direct those more interested in personal statements to pass on some knowledge. We just did have three people post about their Russia experiences. I eagerly await your yours Complex, as the most important thing on this thread is to prevent similar from happening again.

Thanks in advance for some useful input.
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pelmet
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pelmet »

complexintentions wrote:A nice summary of the current environment at the incident airline. Maybe pelmet can jump on the thread at PPRune and set him straight about the effects of declining experience.
I suppose I am not surprised that no helpful information about preventing an accident was provided from you despite my request(as complaining about working conditions there won't help the average pilot on this forum looking to prevent a similar event happening to themself) but.....

....I do stand corrected. Take a look at this landing video.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roS6oFj ... e=youtu.be
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Last edited by pelmet on Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by golden hawk »

AGAIN??

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b21e320&opt=0

Incident: Emirates A388 at New York on Dec 4th 2017, at about 200 feet in the middle of turn to runway 13L
By Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Dec 9th 2017 23:03Z, last updated Saturday, Dec 9th 2017 23:46Z
An Emirates Airbus A380-800, registration A6-EEU performing flight EK-207 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to New York JFK,NY (USA), was on final approach to New York's runway 13L following the Canarsie approach (requiring a 90 degrees turn onto very short final), when the aircraft descended below minimums prompting tower to warn EK-207 "you appear to be extremely low on approach" at 20:26L (01:26Z Dec 5th) while the aircraft was about half way into the turn about to be abeam the Aqueduct Racetrack about 2.5nm before the runway threshold, the crew announced in response "missed approach". The aircraft climbed out to safety, positioned for another approach now to runway 22L and landed safely about 10 minutes after the go-around.

The FAA radar data suggest the aircraft was at 200 feet AGL at the lowest point. The Webtrak data produced by the airport authority show the aircraft at 338 feet MSL at its lowest point.

ADS-B data transmitted by the aircraft (and recorded in one minute intervals) show the aircraft at the lowest point at 25 feet MSL measured to standard pressure already climbing at 2100fpm at 20:27:07L (01:27:07Z Dec 5th). With the current Altimeter setting of 30.43 inches (see METARs) 467 feet need to be added to compensate for ambient pressure, the ADS-B therefore show the aircraft at pressure altitude 492 feet MSL already in the climb again.

Another Emirates A388 had descended below safe height on approach to Moscow about 3 months ago, see Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway.

Metars:
KJFK 050251Z 14010KT 10SM BKN037 BKN180 09/05 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP304 T00940050 53001=
KJFK 050151Z 15010KT 10SM BKN037 BKN250 09/04 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP302 T00940044=
KJFK 050051Z 14011KT 10SM OVC035 09/04 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP303 T00940044=
KJFK 042351Z 15008KT 10SM OVC035 09/04 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP303 T00940044 10106 20078 55003=
KJFK 042251Z 14008KT 10SM BKN032 OVC250 09/05 A3042 RMK AO2 SLP299 T00890050=
KJFK 042151Z 11006KT 10SM BKN032 BKN250 08/04 A3043 RMK AO2 SLP303 T00780044=

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE5 ... /OMDB/KJFK
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pelmet
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pelmet »

If you don't have some sort of tailored approach procedure in your FMS for the VOR 13 approach giving some sort of VNAV descent path, then just use a 3 to 1 descent but starting from the proper location. After crossing CRI VOR at 1500' descend and then level off to cross DMYHL(like it is just another step-down fix) at 1200' for 13L or at 800' for 13R and start a normal descent again at DMYHL while waiting for the angled VASI to come into view(possibly replaced by PAPI now). If you start a continuous normal descent rate from CRI, you will be down low too early.

Of course, they may be hard to see in the early morning sun.
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