Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

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Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by golden hawk »

http://avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0
Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway
By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Sep 18th 2017 12:55Z, last updated Tuesday, Sep 19th 2017 09:23Z
An Emirates Airbus A380-800, registration A6-EEZ performing flight EK-131 from Dubai (United Arab Emirates) to Moscow Domodedovo (Russia), was positioning for an approach to Domodedovo's runway 14R about to intercept the extended runway center line about 8nm before the runway threshold when the aircraft descended to about 400 feet AGL, initiated a go around climbing straight ahead and crossing through the localizer to safe altitude. The aircraft subsequently positioned for another approach to runway 14R, aligned with the extended runway center line but did not initiate the final descent and joined the missed approach procedure as result. The aircraft positioned again for an approach to runway 14R and landed without further incident on runway 14R about 35 minutes after the first go around (from 400 feet AGL).

Position and Altitude data transmitted by the aircraft's transponder suggest the aircraft was tracking about 190 degrees magnetic when the aircraft initiated the go around at about 1000 feet MSL about 8nm before the runway threshold, which translates to about 400 feet AGL with the aerodrome elevation at 180 meters/592 feet MSL.

The airline told The Aviation Herald on Sep 18th 2017, that the occurrence is being investigated by United Arab Emirates' Civil Aviation Authority GCAA, the airline apologizes that due to the investigation no further details can be provided.

The GCAA have already sent a first preliminary reply indicating the communication department is about to respond to the questions.

On Sep 19th 2017 the GCAA reported that the occurrence of the A380 descending below the glideslope on approach to runway 14R at Moscow Deomodedovo Airport was rated a serious incident and is being investigated by UAE's Air Accident Investigation Sector (AAIS). There were no injuries and no damage to the aircraft.

Russia's Rosaviatsia (Civil Aviation Authority) have not yet replied to the inquiry by The Aviation Herald.

Metars:
UUDD 102030Z 20003MPS 170V230 9999 -SHRA SCT050CB 14/12 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 102000Z 20003MPS 9999 -SHRA FEW046CB 14/11 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101930Z 21003MPS CAVOK 14/11 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101900Z 21003MPS 170V230 CAVOK 14/11 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101830Z 18003MPS CAVOK 14/11 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101800Z 18004MPS CAVOK 15/11 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101730Z 18004MPS 9999 FEW040 15/12 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101700Z 19003MPS 9999 FEW040 15/12 Q1016 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101630Z 18003MPS CAVOK 15/12 Q1016 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101600Z 17003MPS CAVOK 17/12 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101530Z 17003MPS CAVOK 18/12 Q1015 R88/010095 NOSIG
UUDD 101500Z 18003MPS CAVOK 20/12 Q1016 R88/010095 NOSIG
:shock:
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by complexintentions »

Yep! When the experience has left in droves and they continually lower the minimum hiring requirements, it catches up with you eventually.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pelmet »

complexintentions wrote:Yep! When the experience has left in droves and they continually lower the minimum hiring requirements, it catches up with you eventually.
How exactly did you become aware of the experience level of the crew? Experience doesn't guarantee anything. A crew with over 30,000 hours combined did a go-round recently which made international news after they made some sort of error.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by complexintentions »

My "how exactly" is from getting the emails from folks well-placed in flight ops there, and my comment is based on working there for a decade and watching the trend, and closely following what's going on now. If you feel you have similar insight to share, please do. If you just feel like arguing for its own sake as you typically do, give us a break for once and skip it.

Experience levels have plummeted, so has the quality of training. The profile of a typical EK pilot or trainer is almost completely unrecognizable from a decade ago. At the same time the expansion has continued and fatigue issues haven't been addressed. It's no coincidence they've had two hull losses in the last couple years (including FZ) after 30 years without one.

You run things at redline, eventually they break.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by Eric Janson »

complexintentions wrote:Yep! When the experience has left in droves and they continually lower the minimum hiring requirements, it catches up with you eventually.
A worrying trend throughout the industry - and it's only getting worse imho.

This is apparently a real e-mail sent to Emirates Instructors.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/59970 ... t-sim.html

Glad I don't work for such a dysfunctional organisation!
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pdw »

goldenhawk wrote: :shock:
CAVOK doesn't mean 'all is great' if it was clear air shear that catches them off guard there
did not initiate final descent
(this was the second time around)

An increased performance shear (where autopilot/pilot cuts power for it too much) likely encountered. Same encounter near the same place the second time only 17.5 minutes later (third approach is "35 minutes later") but didn't cut power the second time ... therefore got too high and had to goaround the second time. The third time landed OK, because they figured it out.
compleximtentions wrote:Experience levels have plummetted and so has the quality of training ...
Anyone know how to get at a surface analysis out of records for that hour to illustrate the powerful low pressure system (out to the northwest) and its trough ? It's taking me too long to make one up station by station, .. esp in this case since there are so few reliable ones NW of Moscow towards the ocean.

The air is Cavok and smooth, yes; however (early checking) I see there may be opportunity here to show the shear-zone, likely up to 20-30kts difference over a few miles. On the second approach they simply come in faster ... yet then (after the shear/second time) are getting a bit too fast to "initiate final descent" before they know it ... so had to do the go-around the second time. In that case IMO they are great pilots learning a tough lesson. We'll see ...
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by sanjet »

pdw wrote:.

The air is Cavok and smooth, yes; however (early checking) I see there is a shear-zone, likely up to 20-30kts difference over a few miles. On the second approach they simply come in faster ... yet then suddenly (after the shear/second time) are too fast to "initiate final descent" before they know it ... so had to do the go-around the second time. In that case IMO they are great pilots learning a tough lesson. We'll see ...
I assume this is an inside joke?
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by gwagen »

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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by Eric Janson »

Trying to intercept the Glideslope from above and not arming Approach mode could potentially lead to something like this.

Not saying this is the case here - we will have to wait for the report.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pelmet »

complexintentions wrote:My "how exactly" is from getting the emails from folks well-placed in flight ops there, and my comment is based on working there for a decade and watching the trend, and closely following what's going on now. If you feel you have similar insight to share, please do. If you just feel like arguing for its own sake as you typically do, give us a break for once and skip it.
I would be happy to continue giving you insight.
complexintentions wrote: Experience levels have plummeted, so has the quality of training. The profile of a typical EK pilot or trainer is almost completely unrecognizable from a decade ago. At the same time the expansion has continued and fatigue issues haven't been addressed. It's no coincidence they've had two hull losses in the last couple years (including FZ) after 30 years without one.

You run things at redline, eventually they break.
I agree with your general statements experience being preferred to lack of experience and of course fatingue being undesirable and likely at this company.

But, you have basically stated that plummeting experience levels are the cause of this. How many hours do you think that a British Airways cadet has when put on the line of an airline with a great safety record from their pilots. Same with many other companies. Almost all their new pilots have a lack of experience. How many captains at well-regarded airlines around the world will do a direct entry training course on an aircraft completely unfamiliar to them this year. Yet the system seems to safely accomodate this.

There has been very few recent airliner accidents in North America over the last few years but looking at a few where crews were at fault...the captain of a fatal UPS A-300 crash had 8600 hours and 3200 on type while the FO had 4700 hours. A captain with 11,000 hours on type at Delta ran an MD-88 off the side of a slippery runway at LGA a couple of years ago. The AC guys at YHZ both had over 5000 hours on type and over 10000 hours total.

Yet as soon as EK has an incident, you are blaming experience levels. Pilots with insight know that there is likely much more to this incident than simple guesses.

Perhaps you are not happy with your former employer but in my opinion, EK has provided incredible opportunities for pilots worldwide who may not have otherwise had this opportunity....to see the world and fly the biggest there is. Is there better out there....of course.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by FICU »

pdw wrote:Anyone know how to get at a surface analysis out of records for that hour to illustrate the powerful low pressure system...
pdw... tell us all how high above the ground they should have been at 8 miles back on a stabilized approach please.

Then explain to us how your shear event could have caused them to deviate from where they should have been.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pdw »

FICU wrote:how high above the ground they should have been at 8 miles back
I wasn't so much interested in that, except for the fact they were at 400agl and why did they get so low exactly. Low sometimes means got slow. I'm sure there could be more here than only one simple reason. As goldenhawk says ... "in cavok ? :shock:"

Searching a surface analysis for any potential shear involved as a factor, at 9 miles back or so at X-agl there's the goaround decision that takes 20 seconds to arrive at "8 miles/400agl", .. so then 10-11miles back from the threshold is where I'd look for that kind of effect on the speeds ...
FICU wrote:..explain to us how your shear event could have caused them to deviate from where they should have been.
It's not mine really ... it belongs to the official weather maps ... I'm just showing you where to have a little closer look before discounting the idea altogether that they also may have gotten into a steady streak of different air there (ie: in cavok, yet parallel to that trough in steeper pressure gradient).

EDIT (2 days later):
Well, it turns out that on the 190M heading they're actually nearly perpendicular to the isobars ....
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Last edited by pdw on Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by FICU »

They should have been around 2400 feet AGL at 8 miles back... do you still think that a weather /wind event could have put them 2000 feet low on the approach? This is either a complete loss of situational awareness... poor auto-flight management, zero to no flight path/instrument monitoring, a mechanical issue or a combination of all or any.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pdw »

There's was something added to the original article above, about being cleared to 500 there but in descending faster went a bit below. There's some suggestion that may be a meters/feet misunderstanding; the 500 meters is is supposed to be 1640ft at that location. That would possibly mean they were fortunate for the ground proximity warning device, so at least they got levelled off for goaround by 400ft. (That is suggesting it's actually possible that 500ft may have been misunderstood, which is 1140ft below 500Meters}.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by FICU »

Emirates s A380 drivers would be constantly exposed to flying in meters and feet so that should not be an issue. They were completely unstabilized on that approach and had no business being 2000 feet below a standard stabilized approach profile.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by rookiepilot »

FICU wrote:They should have been around 2400 feet AGL at 8 miles back... do you still think that a weather /wind event could have put them 2000 feet low on the approach? This is either a complete loss of situational awareness... poor auto-flight management, zero to no flight path/instrument monitoring, a mechanical issue or a combination of all or any.
If it might have been a mechanical / instrumentation issue, why are experience levels even being raised here as the "probable" causation?

Are experience levels also not a worldwide issue? Sure sounds like it when I read who Jazz et all is putting in right seats.

If this was a Canadian carrier the response would be "wait for an official report".

Should do the same here.

Funny how all of us commenting on SFO were told, "it was a garden variety missed approach".

Last I looked 400 feet is more than 59 feet....oh never mind :mrgreen:
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by FICU »

rookiepilot wrote:Last I looked 400 feet is more than 59 feet....oh never mind :mrgreen:
400 feet 7.5 miles back from the runway doing an ILS approach is a big f*ck up.
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by pdw »

The actual ILS is missed on the 190M heading after terrain-warning (link). The "fast descent" in being cleared to "500" (the potential error-point/in narrative/link) tracks beyond bright lights that abruptly end at the SE-edge of Moscow (~2hrs after dusk) and immediately over darkened terrain up to "Domodevo", still far ahead to the left (google maps).
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by CAL »

Maybe it's the pml
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Re: Incident: Emirates A388 at Moscow on Sep 10th 2017, go around from about 400 feet AGL 8nm before runway

Post by rookiepilot »

FICU wrote:
rookiepilot wrote:Last I looked 400 feet is more than 59 feet....oh never mind :mrgreen:
400 feet 7.5 miles back from the runway doing an ILS approach is a big f*ck up.
So's the AC incident.
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