Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

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Snowy
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Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#1 Post by Snowy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:28 am

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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#2 Post by g_goo_goo » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:17 pm

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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#3 Post by Skymark » Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:24 pm

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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#4 Post by cncpc » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:23 pm

Any information on what is behind the claim the aircraft "...appeared to be in distress"?
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#5 Post by whistlerboy02 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:32 am

I've landed on RWY 14 in the dark. It's a big black hole out there over the lake
I am confused by the reported distress call also.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#6 Post by DCL415 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:04 pm

There is an instructor with the same name in Brampton webpage. Can anyone verify its her?
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#7 Post by g_goo_goo » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:49 pm

DCL415 wrote:There is an instructor with the same name in Brampton webpage. Can anyone verify its her?
Yes, unfortunately it is:

OPP have identified Veronica Draghici, a 36-year-old Brampton Flight Centre instructor, as one of two fatal victims in a plane crash that took place late Wednesday evening in the Goderich area.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#8 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:10 pm

Know of the pilot, friend of a friend. Any factual info, appreciate a PM.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#9 Post by DCL415 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:19 am

Thanks, condolences to the family and friends
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#10 Post by MrAviator19 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:35 am

I had a conversation with Veronica Draghici a couple years ago while she was an administrator at BFC. I went in regarding some clarity on my tax claims and from there we started to talk about other things. That's when I found out she had a little kid and was working to make it to the airlines some day. She was very nice and a real hard-worker pursuing the airline dream in her 30s (like myself and that's why it hits close to home). So tragic! Deepest condolences to the families and friends of both victims. Sounds like she was on a night-rating flight with the student, Goderich is the standard night x-country at BFC.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#11 Post by pelmet » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:39 am

whistlerboy02 wrote:I've landed on RWY 14 in the dark. It's a big black hole out there over the lake
MrAviator19 wrote:Sounds like she was on a night-rating flight with the student, Goderich is the standard night x-country at BFC.
Putting the details of this accident aside, the statements above bring up the question of whether it is a good idea to be doing a night cross-country like this if it will end up over pitch black water.

I suppose there are two ways of looking at it. Best to avoid as control could be lost due to poor instrument flying skills or.....a good demonstration to a student of what night VFR can be like.

If you are going to proceed over the lake and away from lights, somebody on board better be proficient at instrument flying. Then there are the issues of being an instructor struggling to get control of the aircraft from a student that won't let go. Apparently...it happens on occasion.

Glad I avoided the instructor route.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#12 Post by MrAviator19 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:23 am

pelmet wrote:
whistlerboy02 wrote:I've landed on RWY 14 in the dark. It's a big black hole out there over the lake
MrAviator19 wrote:Sounds like she was on a night-rating flight with the student, Goderich is the standard night x-country at BFC.
Putting the details of this accident aside, the statements above bring up the question of whether it is a good idea to be doing a night cross-country like this if it will end up over pitch black water.

I suppose there are two ways of looking at it. Best to avoid as control could be lost due to poor instrument flying skills or.....a good demonstration to a student of what night VFR can be like.

If you are going to proceed over the lake and away from lights, somebody on board better be proficient at instrument flying. Then there are the issues of being an instructor struggling to get control of the aircraft from a student that won't let go. Apparently...it happens on occasion.

Glad I avoided the instructor route.
My first (& only) flight to CYGD was for the night-rating requirement as well, but my instructor at the time was well trained on instruments with the IFR rating. He allowed me to approach rwy 14 all by myself giving only good verbal cues on pitch/power requirements. I guess we built that "trust" flying together over so many months but he was also an excellent instructor. Even with all that, I bounced as I touched down on the runway first, eventually eased the plane on the surface and did a touch-and-go. I honestly think CYGD is not a good place to do someone's first ever night x-country. I'd rather go to a controlled airport in or around a city.

I couldn't go the instructor route myself - too much of a control freak if flying with someone who has never seen the cockpit up close.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#13 Post by anofly » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:11 pm

It can get very "black" out over the lake on a rwy 32 departure at Goderich. Normal prevailing winds have landings and takeoffs on rwy 32. On the night in question anyone know what winds were? either a departure out over the lake and crosswind turn over the lake? or a base to final turn out over the lake?. Condolences to all involved. There are things to be taught about the "black hole". And experience teaches a lot, but in goderich I would take a 3 or 4 knot tailwind and takeoff on 14 to keep some lights in view if I was trying to stack the deck in my favour...
fly safe....
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#14 Post by geneticistx » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:21 pm

Reports mentioned that people saw the aircraft in distress, no?
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#15 Post by whistlerboy02 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:38 am

I think Goderich is an excellent place for dual cross country, 2 licensed pilots onboard, good weather,
Training needs to prepare pilots for actual conditions.
This may not even be a factor in this accident so I'll leave it for another thread. But there's no reason to avoid Goderich.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#16 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:38 am

whistlerboy02 wrote:I think Goderich is an excellent place for dual cross country, 2 licensed pilots onboard, good weather,
Training needs to prepare pilots for actual conditions.
This may not even be a factor in this accident so I'll leave it for another thread. But there's no reason to avoid Goderich.
Agree. I did my night rating (maybe even PPL) using that, taking off from 32. Had my "oh crap" moment. But training needs to encompass realism.

My least favorite is runway 9 at rockcliffe on a cloudy night, cause only first half of the runway is even lighted. Lift off and all lighting disappears.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#17 Post by 5x5 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:23 pm

I don't agree that just because certain situations exist, i.e pitch black departure over a lake, that they need to be trained for. Good pilot decision making actually means that you avoid the kind of situations which have proven to be killers.

Night VFR flight is taken far too lightly by many pilots, in my opinion. Sadly the requirements for ATPL licensing encourages the least experienced to be the ones who do a lot of it. As an experienced pilot, mentor or Instructor I think it is important for any of us to stress making night VFR flights as safe as possible and doing flights in challenging/dangerous situations or areas adds nothing of benefit to compensate for the increased risk.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#18 Post by pelmet » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:07 pm

Class 5 so the TSB will never put out a report. While a definite cause may never have been found anyways for a situation like this.....the only lesson most of us will have learned(or reviewed) is what is on this thread. Useful information which may or may not be reflective of what happened. That is the reality of the majority of aircraft accidents/incidents.

"C-FHPU, a privately operated Cessna 150J aircraft, was on a VFR flight from Brampton-Caledon, ON (CNC3) to Goderich, ON (CYGD) and return to CNC3 with two persons on board. C-FHPU was last observed on radar at 0036 UTC at an altitude of 1800 feet, approximately 1.1 nautical miles East of CYGD. The aircraft was later located in Georgian Bay, heavily damaged and submerged. The two occupants were fatally injured."
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#19 Post by PilotDAR » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:15 pm

Class 5 so the TSB will never put out a report
Yes, this seems to be a trend with the TSB. Ten years ago, a single fatal accident which crossed my life was heavily investigated by the TSB, and a comprehensive report issued. But the TSB investigator who investigated the accident I was involved in over the summer told me that the two fatal accident involving my friend in the spring would also not be reported.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#20 Post by pelmet » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:10 pm

It would be nice to know if the TSB is actually requesting(or should be demanding) more money from our spendthrift government or if they are just accepting whatever amount is given to them without question.

Trudeau is setting aside 100 million dollars for more compensation of past wrongs and gave 10 million to a convicted terrorist. How abut some more for the TSB.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#21 Post by waterdog » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:29 pm

From what I was told the TSB is changing things up soon. I was recently at the Transport Canada held training and it was, a "night with TSB" . We were told that they have recognized that class 5 investigations where only immediate family are given any report is now changing and they are adding a class 4 level. Class 4 reports will be available publicly, as they recognized our desire to learn from the reports, part of their mandate actually. The night with TSB was excellent, the accident investigations were very thorough and gave some real insight into some recent crashes. We were also told that if there is an accident that you would like some more information on, and its designated class 5, if you reach out to them they will walk through the investigation findings with you.

If you see the presentation again it is well worth going.

Pilotdar, check your messages.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#22 Post by pelmet » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:23 pm

waterdog wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:29 pm
From what I was told the TSB is changing things up soon. I was recently at the Transport Canada held training and it was, a "night with TSB" . We were told that they have recognized that class 5 investigations where only immediate family are given any report is now changing and they are adding a class 4 level. Class 4 reports will be available publicly, as they recognized our desire to learn from the reports, part of their mandate actually. The night with TSB was excellent, the accident investigations were very thorough and gave some real insight into some recent crashes. We were also told that if there is an accident that you would like some more information on, and its designated class 5, if you reach out to them they will walk through the investigation findings with you.
Thanks for the reply. I found it quite interesting. Can you please confirm that for all class 5 investigations, there actually is an investigation but that the results are not made public?
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#23 Post by waterdog » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:25 pm

What came out was very interesting, and I am paraphrasing from memory so give me some latitude here.
Basically this:
The TSB mandate is to investigate accidents with the purpose of improving aviation safety. So, what this means is that if someone calls to report an accident and the TSB speaks with the police and determines that the plane wings were held on with duct tape and the pilot was impaired then they are not going to attend the scene. Everyone knows already that you shouldn't fly planes held together with duct tape, impaired and there is nothing to be learned from this investigation. No point in wasting resources.
Then there are other GA accidents, they end up getting labeled as a class 5, so there is no report released to the public but I was shocked at the level of the investigation done. Even in a class 5 accident, they went way deeper into the cause of the accident then I ever thought. Engine disassembled, bits sent to the lab for analysis and so on.
The impression I got was if there was an accident that you wanted more information on, simply calling the TSB would yield a lot more information then what is available publicly. It sounds like there has been the realization that making the information public would be a much better service and hence the new class 4 accident class. I got the impression that commercial accidents were the ones that really fell into the higher classification of reports for obvious reasons.

I came away from the presentation with a new found respect for the TSB and the work that they do, undoubtedly with very limited funding and resources.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#24 Post by pelmet » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:37 pm

Thanks for the info. I strongly urge the TSB to organize the information they have on class 5 accidents/incidents(if any organizing is required) and make this information available to the public. People would still like to know that the airplane that crashed was being held together only with duct tape.
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Re: Goderich - 1 fatality, 1 missing

#25 Post by anofly » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:40 pm

I think you might find that if there was an airframe failure, etc, that the TSB would be sharing. A single discrete accident , where in all likelyhood it was the dreaded "pilot error, or decision making" as a cause. there is not a lot to be gained by sharing it , wrt public safety.
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