Beaver down

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sunk
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Beaver down

#1 Post by sunk » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:14 pm

Anyone hear about a beaver down around St Theresa Point?
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sunk
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Re: Beaver down

#2 Post by sunk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:06 am

Wings over kississing beaver had an engine failure. No one seriously hurt but it's a write off. Good job to the pilot.
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pelmet
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Re: Beaver down

#3 Post by pelmet » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:48 pm

sunk wrote:Anyone hear about a beaver down around St Theresa Point?
No...but this one doesn't sound like it was the best of flying techniques.....


C-FTCW, a de Havilland DHC-2 MK. I aircraft on floats operated by Ocean Pacific Air Services, was conducting a flight from Prince Rupert, BC (CZSW) to Browns Lake, BC. While on approach to land at the east end of the lake, the pilot decided to abort the landing and elected to perform an approach from the west end of the lake, following a company aircraft. While the pilot maneuvered the aircraft for the landing, the aircraft stalled when in a left turn. During the attempt to recover from the stall, the aircraft hit trees along the shore of the lake and subsequently collided with the terrain. The pilot suffered minor injuries; however, the aircraft was substantially damaged.
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Re: Beaver down

#4 Post by Meatservo » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:09 am

When a DeHavilland floatplane decides to try and kill you, it will often go for the old stall-in-a-turn trick. Either turning final or on the first turn after takeoff. It’s a well-known trick but people keep falling for it.
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Re: Beaver down

#5 Post by phillyfan » Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 pm

There are graveyards filled with bodies because pilots thought the Beaver was easy to fly. The problem is that physics apply to all airplane types.
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Re: Beaver down

#6 Post by pelmet » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:46 pm

The last two posts are extremely interesting. Every year I read about what seems like endless accident reports about the type. How about in the interest of reducing the carnage, both you guys expand on your statements on this aircrafts characteristics. It looks like a docile machine to me and I might just be flying one in the future. What should a newbie be aware of?

Thanks
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Re: Beaver down

#7 Post by 7ECA » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:04 pm

Maybe for pelmet's benefit, the industry as a whole should push to immediately retire all Beavers from the commercial fleet? That 'ought to increase safety markedly. :roll:
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Re: Beaver down

#8 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:18 pm

Pelmet the Beaver is a very easy airplane to fly however when it stalls in a turn the stall can be quick and requires height to recover from, which in all of the stall turn accidents with Beavers the pilots did not have because they stalled at a low altitude.

The airplane is not difficult to fly nor is it dangerous.

Complacency and or a too aggressive steep turn is the problem.

In other words pilot error is the cause.
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Re: Beaver down

#9 Post by AuxBatOn » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:29 pm

The Beaver suffers from very suttle stall cues in all configurations. There is little to no buffet to earn of an impeding stall.

Having said that, with a properly executed recovery, you may lose 75 ft in the recovery.
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Re: Beaver down

#10 Post by pelmet » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:49 pm

Two excellent posts that might save lives and sadly, useless stuff by 7ECA. I suggest you delete your post. Meanwhile, lets get some more life saving info and show the best of AvCanada. It could be somebody's loved one we are saving.t
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Last edited by pelmet on Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Beaver down

#11 Post by trey kule » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:04 pm

One of the unique characteristics of a beaver is the controls seem to get lighter as you slow down, and almost more effective.
It is also very easy in a turn on floats into a brisker wind to inadvertently skid the plane.

Couple these. Characteristics with a bush attitude to be turning final a 100 or so feet above the water and it will catch people.

I am not sure a cross controlled beaver on a medium to teep bank that stalls as a surprise will be typically recovered in 75 feet
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Re: Beaver down

#12 Post by crazyaviator » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:14 pm

It looks like a docile machine to me and I might just be flying one in the future. What should a newbie be aware of?
As a beaver driver with a few hundred hours on it on floats, I never flew beyond its limitations to find out how it would perform in a worse case scenario ! To me it was safe, docile and in many ways, behaved like a cub !
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Re: Beaver down

#13 Post by sportingrifle » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:52 pm

The beaver IS an easy and delightful airplane to fly, but like all airplanes, is a flying engineering compramise with a few design flaws thrown in for good measure. There is still nothing that can do what it does economically. (Yes a Quest Kodiak will but I can probably buy a fleet of 10 Beavers for the cost of a Kodiak!) The key is good training, with an emphasis on slow speed handling and stalls, take off performance, and crosswind handling. This is a "cut and paste" of a note sent a few years ago to somebody whom I was teaching to fly the airplane.

5 take aways for flying the airplane....

1) She will carry anything, but barely. The ROC at gross on floats is about 300 fpm. (about 400 on wheels) This means that a 301 fpm downdraft will bring the airplane down. You need to be veeery aware of the terrain on departure and the expected winds/downdrafts. Remember that almost every take off into wind on a lake has a downdraft at the far end.
2) The airplane has almost no stall warning. The controls remain effective right up to the stall and when she does stall she usually doesn't drop the nose much nor the wing. She just mushes down flat at 2000+ per minute. Pitch attitude / power/ and airspeed need to be monitored. Coupled with the poor rate of climb, you can see how most of them get wrecked!
3) The engine is simple and reliable but does need some specific gentle handling and care. Warmups are critical - less than 900 rpm until 40 deg. of oil temp. Hydraulic locks are not a big concern like on the Yaks and T-28's , but still must be guarded against. They talk to you if they are getting sick and you need to learn to listen.
4) She is a flap airplane and there is a specific flap setting for every phase of flight. The wing loading is over 20 lbs./sq. foot and the flaps are the only reason she flies. In fact, the flaps can change the stall speed by 20 mph! Knowing the effect of adding and removing flap at each phase of flight is critical - you won't have time to figure it out when you need to know.
5) 3 fuel tanks in the belly. Can feed from only one at a time. Fuel gauges are awful and the tanks cannot be dipped. You need to make very sure that there is sufficient fuel in whatever tank you are feeding off when flying below 1500 agl - in most operations this is probably all the time. You do not want to be running a tank dry on climb out or approach. It is easy to do if distracted.
6) The airplane has very poor crosswind capabilities on floats or wheels. A result of a large slab sided fuselage and a pathetically under engineered rudder. 10 mph on floats, not much more on wheels.

Other than the above, she is a delight to fly and a giant pussycat.

Cheers Sportingrifle.
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Re: Beaver down

#14 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 pm

Interesting thread.
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Re: Beaver down

#15 Post by ruddersup? » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:32 pm

Many thousands of hours on the Beaver - listen and obey the above. No room for show offs and complacency. It's a flap aircraft - nuff said.
I'm still here but not from my advanced flying skill. :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Re: Beaver down

#16 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:28 pm

It's a flap aircraft -
Yup, even in level flight at cruise.

Flew my first Beaver in Wawa Ont. in 1965 with Air Dale.
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Re: Beaver down

#17 Post by whistlerboy02 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:42 pm

Original Beaver test flight with Russ Bannock had an engine failure after takeoff, He landed it deadstick without incident. All in a days work
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Re: Beaver down

#18 Post by Blakey » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:18 pm

whistlerboy02 wrote:Original Beaver test flight with Russ Bannock had an engine failure after takeoff, He landed it deadstick without incident. All in a days work
Do you happen to have a reference for that? I've never heard of an engine failure and I have watched the film. He DID have an oil leak (Most embarassing for the engineers who prepped it.) that forced him to come back and get it fixed but the engine ran the whole flight as far as I know. Did I miss something?
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Re: Beaver down

#19 Post by GyvAir » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:13 pm

https://reader.paperc.com/books/The-Imm ... 27327/ch01

According to the above, oil pressure dropped to 10psi, so he "dead-sticked" it in at idle, to minimize chance of engine damage.
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Re: Beaver down

#20 Post by Independence » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:06 pm

I have always used not less than 80 mph and flap at 'climb' until established on final. Worked for me so far!
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Re: Beaver down

#21 Post by whistlerboy02 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:45 pm

Blakey, his son told me, so it's second hand but I can say not by much. Russ is still alive and well, but probably not on here.
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Re: Beaver down

#22 Post by crazyaviator » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:09 pm

5 take aways for flying the airplane....

1) She will carry anything, but barely. The ROC at gross on floats is about 300 fpm. (about 400 on wheels) This means that a 301 fpm downdraft will bring the airplane down. You need to be veeery aware of the terrain on departure and the expected winds/downdrafts. Remember that almost every take off into wind on a lake has a downdraft at the far end.
2) The airplane has almost no stall warning. The controls remain effective right up to the stall and when she does stall she usually doesn't drop the nose much nor the wing. She just mushes down flat at 2000+ per minute. Pitch attitude / power/ and airspeed need to be monitored. Coupled with the poor rate of climb, you can see how most of them get wrecked!
3) The engine is simple and reliable but does need some specific gentle handling and care. Warmups are critical - less than 900 rpm until 40 deg. of oil temp. Hydraulic locks are not a big concern like on the Yaks and T-28's , but still must be guarded against. They talk to you if they are getting sick and you need to learn to listen.
4) She is a flap airplane and there is a specific flap setting for every phase of flight. The wing loading is over 20 lbs./sq. foot and the flaps are the only reason she flies. In fact, the flaps can change the stall speed by 20 mph! Knowing the effect of adding and removing flap at each phase of flight is critical - you won't have time to figure it out when you need to know.
5) 3 fuel tanks in the belly. Can feed from only one at a time. Fuel gauges are awful and the tanks cannot be dipped. You need to make very sure that there is sufficient fuel in whatever tank you are feeding off when flying below 1500 agl - in most operations this is probably all the time. You do not want to be running a tank dry on climb out or approach. It is easy to do if distracted.
6) The airplane has very poor crosswind capabilities on floats or wheels. A result of a large slab sided fuselage and a pathetically under engineered rudder. 10 mph on floats, not much more on wheels.

Other than the above, she is a delight to fly and a giant pussycat.

Cheers Sportingrifle.
Now WHY was I not told of these things when I was checked out? A case of the blind leading the blind ! I took the C-185 and many other A/C to their limits and beyond in a safe manner as I learned their mannerisms in a safe way, but I never went there with the beaver!
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Re: Beaver down

#23 Post by fish4life » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:46 am

How would a 185 / Beaver and Otter compare to handling both on the water and in the air?
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Re: Beaver down

#24 Post by switchflicker » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:50 am

Compared to a Beaver, the 185 really doesn't want to go flying. It's not much interested on getting up on the step. If you persevere though it will try to get to the destination much faster than the Beaver and it's not particularly caring if it lands gracefully or not.

Now the Beaver likes flying so much it'll get up on the step with just a few kind words from the pilot and it's so happy to be in the air it just doddles along hoping that the flight will never end. When the pilot insists that it land, it ever so slowly lets down to the water and gently sets down trying not to upset the surface.
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Re: Beaver down

#25 Post by pilotidentity » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:01 am

Well said Switchflicker :)
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