It's time to buzz the tower

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Rockie
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#51 Post by Rockie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:30 am

An Airbus is not a Cessna 172 where you just push the power up a bit and turn left, there is an established and trained go-around procedure which they did not do. The point here being that had the crew and airline planned this, gotten approval, and done it empty you could all admire it to your heart’s content. But they did it with passengers on board.

The surprising thing here is that so many experienced professional pilots are unaware of the expectations civil aviation authorities have when you are carrying passengers. It’s all about SOP’s and safety. Some of you may have, and all of you should have heard the term “intentional non-compliance”. It means you are deliberately not following the SOP’s and regulator approved company policies. In today’s world that is a no-no.

You want to do a fly past go right ahead, just don’t do it with passengers on board or you’ll suffer the entirely predictable consequences. Part of being a professional is knowing what the rules and expectations are. Step outside those and you’re on your own.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#52 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:40 am

If this was a totally irresponsible display of recklessness that scared the poop out of everybody, warranting that the crew be nailed to the wall, or worse, all I can say is, we live in a world of puritanical zealots.

We used to do a SID in KBOS back in 80-90 that required a swift right turn as soon as possible which brought us straight over downtown. Go figure.

Give it a rest, all concerned were in the loop and nobody was even close to getting hurt. I would be very surprised that the crew intentionally deviated from ATS and/or missed approach instructions whatever they may have been.
Read the above again everyone and lets just let this useless argument disappear into the dust bin of history.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#53 Post by Rockie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:52 am

Cat Driver wrote:
If this was a totally irresponsible display of recklessness that scared the poop out of everybody, warranting that the crew be nailed to the wall, or worse, all I can say is, we live in a world of puritanical zealots.

We used to do a SID in KBOS back in 80-90 that required a swift right turn as soon as possible which brought us straight over downtown. Go figure.

Give it a rest, all concerned were in the loop and nobody was even close to getting hurt. I would be very surprised that the crew intentionally deviated from ATS and/or missed approach instructions whatever they may have been.
Read the above again everyone and lets just let this useless argument disappear into the dust bin of history.
How is a published departure procedure related to this event? I must be missing something.

There are too many retired vintage aircraft pilots and other people who don’t know what they’re talking about saying “no big deal”. Well...it is if you want to keep working in this industry today so if you’re new to this game choose wisely whose advice you listen to.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#54 Post by altiplano » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:54 am

Nothing here was unsafe, they were operating within the aircraft's limits and with a clearance.

Should they have done it?
While I realize the correct answer is "No" in today's environment... The better part of me screams "Yes"!

In the Glory Days of our industry, flyovers and sight seeing on A-B flights used to be the norm. Before someone with a stick up their ass and cost control became the drivers...

Sounds like a suspension is justice enough considering these guys are losing their jobs anyway... I wouldn't go looking to hang these guys.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#55 Post by Rockie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:31 am

I wouldn’t look to hang them either, but it would be their last chance. Of course if a passenger decides to sue because of the actions of the crew how is it defensible? Citing the “glory days” of aviation?

Surely you know these aren’t the “glory days” of aviation anymore, and that the next generation will be looking at today as the glory days. You also no doubt know what “intentional non-compliance” means and how what this crew did fits alongside that definition. If not you’d better learn PDQ.

Lament the good old days all you like, but if you do stupid stuff in an airplane you know, or should have known will land you in a pile of shit who do you have to blame?

Today isn’t yesterday...
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#56 Post by GyvAir » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:04 am

I'm going over to the other Canadian aviation forum to get the final word on this issue, along with the inevitable and somehow loosely associated aerobatics videos from CS. Wish me luck!
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#57 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:12 am

For sure you will get a different slant on things over there. :mrgreen:
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#58 Post by Meatservo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:19 am

I just felt that burst of excitement one feels when one has an epiphany: thanks to Rockie, I just suddenly and unequivocally decided on the title of the book I want to write about flying:

“Intentional Non-Compliance”

Look for it on the shelves in about ten years. I’m waiting that long to officially become “an old guy” in case something else interesting happens. Seems unlikely but you never know.

Thanks Rockie!
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#59 Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:34 pm

Rockie wrote: Today isn’t yesterday...
Sadly this is the truth....
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#60 Post by Rockie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:00 pm

Meatservo wrote:I just felt that burst of excitement one feels when one has an epiphany: thanks to Rockie, I just suddenly and unequivocally decided on the title of the book I want to write about flying:

“Intentional Non-Compliance”

Look for it on the shelves in about ten years. I’m waiting that long to officially become “an old guy” in case something else interesting happens. Seems unlikely but you never know.

Thanks Rockie!
I don’t make the rules, I’m just telling you what they are.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#61 Post by complexintentions » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:42 pm

hahah! I go do a PPC and this thread is still going? Ok, I'm game.
rookiepilot wrote:I'm curious if the pilots here, -- answer honestly -- would be pleased if they were sitting in the back of their company A/C..., or another carrier, and the pilot did something like this without you knowing anything in advance.

My guess is most of you would be less than pleased. :roll:

Not dangerous.

Not particularly cool, professional, with (non pilot ) passengers to do any abnormal maneuvers, in any sized aircraft from a 150 on up...stalls, spins....IMO, and especially without prior permission......things can go wrong.
Guess again. Good lord, most flights I doubt I’d even be awake or notice. How did this conflate to “stalls and spins”? The guy wasn't conducting aerobatics ffs. Exactly my point - overheated hyperbole. Why don’t we save it for something worthy?
atphat wrote:If the plane was empty, sure. It wasn’t. I’m pretty shocked at the responses on this thread. I’m just assuming most are GA pilots. It is not the place of a professional pilot to ever have “fun” at the controls with people on board. Ever. This isn’t a difference of opinion. Want to be treated and perceived as a professional? Act like one. It’s so incredibly black and white.
I know this will disappoint you, but I have "fun" at the controls with people on board, every day I go to work. (Captain, B777). Otherwise why would I even go to work? :mrgreen: Your comment about "black and white" speaks volumes. "Black and Whites" always get frustrated living in a grey world that doesn't fit their neat and tidy, simplistic worldview. Guessing you're kinda young/new to the industry? Not meaning that as an insult, I've just never met anyone over the age of about 30 who hasn't figured out yet the world isn't binary. (There are a few though, like Rockie hahah!) I do get why though, living with a belief in absolutes must be a lot easier.
Rockie wrote: How is a published departure procedure related to this event? I must be missing something.

There are too many retired vintage aircraft pilots and other people who don’t know what they’re talking about saying “no big deal”. Well...it is if you want to keep working in this industry today so if you’re new to this game choose wisely whose advice you listen to.
The point about the published departure procedure is that passengers in the back would have no way of telling the difference between a published departure procedure and this go-around. Duh. Do passengers freak out on your every go-around, Rockie? Mine don't.

But, it's nice to see you adopting your usual condescending tone. :lol: I am certainly not a "retired vintage aircraft pilot" (I wish!), and maybe I know what I'm talking about, maybe I don't. What I do know is in my day job I somehow manage to to be "be treated and perceived as a professional", and I find the level of outrage expressed by a few here pretty entertaining. :mrgreen:
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#62 Post by Rockie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:55 pm

Do people film your published instrument departures and post them on the Internet Complex? Do you fly the 777 using made up procedures to make some personal statement?

Don’t pretend to be daft because I know you’re not. Don’t pretend you’ve been living under a rock and are ignorant of the emphasis this industry has been placing on SOP compliance of late either because you simply can’t be that clueless. But then I’ve been wrong before
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#63 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:57 pm

Some of these guys go way beyond entertaining Complex, I find this one is down right frightening in his opinions.
TOTALLY reckless for an airline pilot to have a “watch this” moment. Anytime. Anywhere. Maybe that shit flies where you work. Totally out of line where I do.
He gives a whole new meaning to a black and white thought process.

Wow....easing into a ten to twenty degree bank angle for about a forty five degree change of departure heading at a very shallow climb angle, hell the passengers probably did not even know it was being done.

And that is TOTALLY reckless, dear God give me the strength to hope I don't have to fly with that mindset. :prayer: :prayer: :prayer:
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#64 Post by altiplano » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:58 pm

Don't worry Rockie.

I heard there was an FA on the flight deck for the entire maneuver.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#65 Post by Rockie » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:09 pm

altiplano wrote:Don't worry Rockie.

I heard there was an FA on the flight deck for the entire maneuver.
Oh boy...you funny man.

I believe you work for AC Altiplano or at least one of its feeders, have you been living under a rock too or is what I’ve been saying true? Because if you still haven’t gotten that message there’s a serious problem somewhere in your ability to absorb a relentlessly repeated message.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#66 Post by atphat » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:19 pm

Incredible.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#67 Post by confusedalot » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:46 pm

U boat mentality anyone?
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#68 Post by altiplano » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:52 pm

Don't take it so personally Rickie.

I'm just joking with you.

I haven't been paying attention that closely to your relentless repetition.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#69 Post by Rockie » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:00 am

Well then, I guess I’m all alone in being wrong. Looking forward to the next entertaining bit of flying in a large commercial aircraft. Who will it be?
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#70 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:39 am

Well things generally come in threes, we had Halifax then San Francisco so lets see what AC does next.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#71 Post by complexintentions » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:55 am

Ya still got it, Cat! :mrgreen:

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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#72 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:14 am

Yeh, goes to show I am to old a cat to be fucked by a kitten. :mrgreen:
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#73 Post by altiplano » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:23 am

Rockie wrote: Surely you know these aren’t the “glory days” of aviation anymore, and that the next generation will be looking at today as the glory days. You also no doubt know what “intentional non-compliance” means and how what this crew did fits alongside that definition. If not you’d better learn PDQ.

Lament the good old days all you like, but if you do stupid stuff in an airplane you know, or should have known will land you in a pile of shit who do you have to blame?

Today isn’t yesterday...
Re:Glory days... just because it's today, doesn't make everything about it better...

Intentional non-compliance is today's buzz term... in the era of LOSA audits where "Roger 350 set" vs. "Roger 350" is intentional non-compliance... taking your shoulder harness off through 10,000 on climb out of YYC is intentional non-compliance... not wearing your blazer after October 1st is intentional non-compliance... again, I said what those guys did in today's environment was wrong, but I think part of the problem is today's environment.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#74 Post by Rockie » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:27 am

Cat Driver wrote:Yeh, goes to show I am to old a cat to be fucked by a kitten. :mrgreen:
You've gotta be kidding... :roll:
altiplano wrote:Re:Glory days... just because it's today, doesn't make everything about it better...
Never said it did.
altiplano wrote:Intentional non-compliance is today's buzz term...
It's a buzz term with teeth which seems to escape you and many other people including the pilot in this video. What makes this a stupid thing to do is knowing it would have to be explained afterwards to people holding your license and livelihood in their hands who aren't applauding your audacity and skill. If you're ok with that and the consequences sure to result then have at...

I call it stupid.
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Re: It's time to buzz the tower

#75 Post by corytrevor » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:20 pm

I call it well done.
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