26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

[cncpc]

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017C5009

UPDATE: TSB Report#A17W0172: The Springbank Air Training College Piper PA 34-200T Seneca II, registered C-GCCM, departed Calgary Springbank (CYBW) Runway 17 on a final training flight prior to the student's multi-engine rating flight test. There was an instructor and student on board. The aircraft did not climb above 200 feet nor accelerate while on the runway heading. The aircraft rolled to the left entering a steep left turn and collided with terrain. There was a post-crash fire, and the two occupants sustained fatal injuries, the aircraft was destroyed.

If you can't get above 200 feet, how are you going to do a circuit?

Does that school simulate failures on takeoff, on the actual takeoff?

[Wammer]

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017C5009

UPDATE: TSB Report#A17W0172: The Springbank Air Training College Piper PA 34-200T Seneca II, registered C-GCCM, departed Calgary Springbank (CYBW) Runway 17 on a final training flight prior to the student's multi-engine rating flight test. There was an instructor and student on board. The aircraft did not climb above 200 feet nor accelerate while on the runway heading. The aircraft rolled to the left entering a steep left turn and collided with terrain. There was a post-crash fire, and the two occupants sustained fatal injuries, the aircraft was destroyed.

If you can't get above 200 feet, how are you going to do a circuit?

Does that school simulate failures on takeoff, on the actual takeoff?

No.

[pdw]

RE:

Does that school simulate failures on takeoff, on the actual takeoff?

Since it does not, it maybe opens to another question:
What IS the most suitable practise regimen for this failure in the first 200ft of climb, shortly past ground-effect and the departure threshold ?

[YBW-Kid]

Departing YBW runway 17 there is a road and deep ditch 860 feet directly south of the end of the runway. Witnesses have reported the aircraft did not accelerate normally on the runway and the aircraft appeared to struggle into the air and climb poorly. Faced with an engine failure or partial loss of power after liftoff, closing the throttles would have to have been identified without any hesitation over the runway and in reality may not really be an option at YBW because of the close proximity of that road and ditch to the south of the runway in the overrun area. Immediately beyond that road to the south is a field with only 2600 feet before the next obstacle - the four lane Trans Canada Highway. Witnesses reported the aircraft crossing over the Trans Canada Highway in a flat profile at approximately 100 feet AGL. They described the aircraft as not climbing and slightly descending in a flat attitude.

Every multi-engined Pilot is trained to keep the airplane flying if possible. Anyone with any multi engine experience knows that the only chance you have to attain any climb profile with one engine in a light twin is to as quickly as possible clean the aircraft up with gear/ flaps and the windmilling prop on the engine not producing power. Putting myself into that situation with some type of engine loss on takeoff (if thats what happened) I could only imagine how challenging that would be to stagger into the air and be faced with the obstacles ahead me.

After crossing the Trans Canada Highway only 2000 feet to the south, is a major power line which is 75 feet high at the poles. It runs southeast of the centreline departure track of Runway 17. At 100 feet as witnesses reported, you would be faced with possibly striking the power lines, going under them, or putting it down in the field before them. The other option, to force the aircraft to climb over the obstacle is not good if altitude and airspeed are not on your side. Struggling to climb and raising the nose would likely decay airspeed to the point where VMC on one engine would be lost. Turning the aircraft to the left to attempt to parallel the large power line has risks on one engine low to the ground especially if the turn is made towards a failed engine.

A second smaller power line 30 feet high runs north south from the airport and is located 1000 feet to the east of of the departure path of Runway 17. That would add an additional obstacle and challenging the option to parallel the first set of wires. Witness reports the aircraft rolling to the left and striking the ground. The accident site is in-between both power lines in a small wedged shaped area immediately south of the large power lines and to the west of the smaller power lines.

I'm so very sorry for those who were involved in this accident and even if my thoughts are determined not to be correct or the full story, that perhaps some positive may come from this tragedy. Maybe somebody reading about this accident may one day use what they learned to recognize and avoid a similar situation for themselves.

[PilotDAR]

Perhaps this sad event creates interest in reviewing single engined performance. I like this article:

http://www.cfidarren.com/p8740-25.pdf

[CpnCrunch]

According to the POH it should climb at about 400fpm on one engine at 3750lb / 4000ft. Of course that's with gear up and inop engine feathered.

[PilotDAR]

Its also worth noting that some props cannot be feathered if the engine speed slows to less than around 1000RPM. This is a possible characteristic a pilot should know before the engine failure...

[photofly]

I’m sorry, I can’t read anything you write because of the crazy animated advertising.

B47E9E27-827D-49B2-B3A1-31D880986FF5.jpeg (806.71 KiB) Viewed 2718 times

[PilotDAR]

But it says that I'M the 1.000.000th visitor!?

['97 Tercel]

Yeah this site has become painful to look at...

[rookiepilot]

Has any mentioned how unbelievably bad this format is?

[GyvAir]

Is this really the thread you guys want to discuss site changes on?

[gwagen]

Seems like perhaps the instructor failed an engine on takeoff and the student misidentified the dead engine and feathered the wrong one, in the confusion dropped below VMC and that was all she wrote?

[pdw]

The answer to earlier/similar questioning about doing that is "No". Not done.
No need to practise if an examiner isn't going there / doing one of those down too low.
_______________

Another Q:
If one fails just as gear starts going in / selected UP after rotation, what is the added speed interruption (just for that power draw) under the remaining engine's power as the other feathers?

[gwagen]

The answer to earlier/similar questioning about doing that is "No". Not done.
No need to practise if an examiner isn't going there / doing one of those down too low.
_______________

Another Q:
If one fails just as gear starts going in / selected UP after rotation, what is the added speed interruption (just for that power draw) under the remaining engine's power as the other feathers?

Just because "its not done" doesn't mean it wasn't.

The Seneca II has an electric hydraulic pump for the landing gear. No appreciable load on the engine/s

It has half decent single engine performance as well.

It is an easy plane to over-boost. My only other thought is if one engine suffered a mechanical failure and in the panic full throttle applied to the functioning engine causing induction system failure or piston damage of some sort taking out the other engine.

-There seems to have been fuel based on the post crash fire.
-They asked for a circuit, not stating a problem or declaring an emergency, (suggesting perhaps a practice manoeuvre)
-The airplane bank over and dove straight in, classic below vmc outcome.

I've flown a Seneca II a number of times and have found it to be a well behaved and decent performing twin. Only downside to it in my mind is the weight of the controls, feels like driving a cement truck without power steering, not a big deal, just not comparable to some of its more refined contemporaries. Though the de icing and counter rotating engines are appreciated.

Finally, condolences to the families.

[pelmet]

Seems like perhaps the instructor failed an engine on takeoff and the student misidentified the dead engine and feathered the wrong one, in the confusion dropped below VMC and that was all she wrote?

Whenever I get training in a light twin, I verbally confirm that the instructor is not going to do something stupid like that. Not worth the risk.

[shamrock104]

Where did the info come about the Instructor failing an engine after takeoff? The call for "immediate right circuit" also a little out of the ordinary so I am guessing whatever went wrong did so before this call was made.

[CpnCrunch]

Where did the info come about the Instructor failing an engine after takeoff? The call for "immediate right circuit" also a little out of the ordinary so I am guessing whatever went wrong did so before this call was made.

Completely baseless speculation, I think.

[YBW-Kid]

Preliminary TSB reporting they were unable to find any mechanical deficiency with the aircraft.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/s ... -1.4454937

[JL]

TSB final report.

http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... 7w0172.asp