26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Message
Author
GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1757
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#26 Post by GyvAir » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:36 am

cncpc wrote:
kevind wrote:https://globalnews.ca/news/3826632/fire ... f-calgary/

Anyone with information regarding this investigation is asked to contact the Cochrane RCMP detachment at 403-851-8000 or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477 (TIPS).
I don't recall ever seeing a request like that before.
That looks like the reporter just copy and pasted the wrong stock story footer onto the end of the piece.
---------- ADS -----------
  

yhz41
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:34 pm
Location: Windy Hell

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#27 Post by yhz41 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:49 am

Jet fuel is highly unlikely as SATC has their own fuel tank on their property and their own ramp staff.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#28 Post by cncpc » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:29 pm

yhz41 wrote:Jet fuel is highly unlikely as SATC has their own fuel tank on their property and their own ramp staff.
Ok, thanks. It is highly unlikely knowing that.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#29 Post by cncpc » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:16 am

GyvAir wrote:
cncpc wrote:
kevind wrote:https://globalnews.ca/news/3826632/fire ... f-calgary/

Anyone with information regarding this investigation is asked to contact the Cochrane RCMP detachment at 403-851-8000 or Crime Stoppers at 1-800-222-8477 (TIPS).
I don't recall ever seeing a request like that before.
That looks like the reporter just copy and pasted the wrong stock story footer onto the end of the piece.
No, not that. The RCMP made that statement as while they await the TSB, they do try and gain eyewitness info as soon as possible so it is fresh in the witnesses mind. The Crime Stoppers thing was an anomaly.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1757
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#30 Post by GyvAir » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:35 pm

Either way, it just looks like copy and pasting on autopilot to me.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#31 Post by pdw » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:26 pm

cncpc wrote:The Crime Stoppers thing was an anomaly.
They might use the same office for that area ..
---------- ADS -----------
  

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#32 Post by cncpc » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:24 pm

GyvAir wrote:Either way, it just looks like copy and pasting on autopilot to me.
No, the journalist went to the RCMP and asked why they were investigating. Because it was possible they suspected something criminal. And their reply was along the lines I posted above. A lot of accidents are in the middle of nowhere with no witnesses. This one took place with a lot of witnesses, and it could well be that some have something that could contribute to understanding this sad thing. The Mounties in these circumstances are the first line of investigation. Why not? That's what they do for a living.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6573
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#33 Post by photofly » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:24 am

Why is the RCMP the front line here, and not the TSB? Is there a whiff of something criminal?

How does the RCMP divvy up its investigative responsibility with the TSB?
---------- ADS -----------
  
“This isn’t flying, it’s falling. With style.”

Zaibatsu
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:37 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#34 Post by Zaibatsu » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:02 am

Emergency services have priority in a crash. Fire dept to put out fires and/or extricate survivors, EMS to render medical aid if able, and police and coroner to deal with fatalities. Except where the TSB needs to recover volatile evidence, they get last dibs at access to the crash.

Condolences.
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6573
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#35 Post by photofly » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:49 am

Right.

But who is responsible for the investigation? TSB, unless there is suspicion of criminality, which is why it’s curious that the RCMP are appealing for witnesses.
---------- ADS -----------
  
“This isn’t flying, it’s falling. With style.”

GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1757
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#36 Post by GyvAir » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:56 am

I skimmed through reports of this accident from over a dozen different new outlets the other day. Only two (including the one linked in the original post) had a request for witnesses or information. Only the one mentioned Crime Stoppers.
---------- ADS -----------
  

plhought
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:02 am
Location: Calgary

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#37 Post by plhought » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:46 pm

I imagine the TSB will frequently call of the RCMP to help gather witnesses and statements. It's usually not an admission of some criminality being involved. It's rather that the RCMP has resources (media relationships, awareness, phone lines, staff) available to consolidate information and witnesses. Their staff are sworn officers and therefore should have all the training and expertise in conducting interviews/gathering statements. Perhaps they then get passed on to the TSB or put in touch with TSB directly.

RCMP also has a remit to investigate a death no matter the circumstance. They may take a back seat in an investigation (in cases like this) but there is a case # and personnel will be assigned to it.

You'd be surprised how many crack-pots will call these "witness" lines as well. Having the RCMP help keeps what is already a relatively lean organization like the TSB from being inundated with useless calls.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#38 Post by cncpc » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:34 pm

photofly wrote:Why is the RCMP the front line here, and not the TSB? Is there a whiff of something criminal?

How does the RCMP divvy up its investigative responsibility with the TSB?
I think in this case the Mounties were being utilized to get people's memories as soon as possible.

Does anyone have any idea of the vertical profile of this flight after liftoff? It is reported as being low, and at "100 feet" when the nose dropped. Any idea if it made it to 500 feet, or higher, then descended, or just struggled all the way on the departure.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#39 Post by cncpc » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:40 pm

plhought wrote:I imagine the TSB will frequently call of the RCMP to help gather witnesses and statements. It's usually not an admission of some criminality being involved. It's rather that the RCMP has resources (media relationships, awareness, phone lines, staff) available to consolidate information and witnesses. Their staff are sworn officers and therefore should have all the training and expertise in conducting interviews/gathering statements. Perhaps they then get passed on to the TSB or put in touch with TSB directly.

RCMP also has a remit to investigate a death no matter the circumstance. They may take a back seat in an investigation (in cases like this) but there is a case # and personnel will be assigned to it.

You'd be surprised how many crack-pots will call these "witness" lines as well. Having the RCMP help keeps what is already a relatively lean organization like the TSB from being inundated with useless calls.
I used to work bases at Vernon and Quesnel. Asked by the RCMP to go to an accident at Barkerville and one at Lumby, just to give them an idea what might be important. Wherever there is a death, the RCMP go there as part of their job. And I suppose they investigate possible foul play to some extent.

Ah, I see you said some of that already.

It is unusual to see the request in a media outlet. They are at the site, the witnesses are probably all there for something like that. So maybe looking for someone who knows something that happened before.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2852
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#40 Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:15 pm

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017C5009
UPDATE: TSB Report#A17W0172: The Springbank Air Training College Piper PA 34-200T Seneca II, registered C-GCCM, departed Calgary Springbank (CYBW) Runway 17 on a final training flight prior to the student's multi-engine rating flight test. There was an instructor and student on board. The aircraft did not climb above 200 feet nor accelerate while on the runway heading. The aircraft rolled to the left entering a steep left turn and collided with terrain. There was a post-crash fire, and the two occupants sustained fatal injuries, the aircraft was destroyed.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#41 Post by cncpc » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:40 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017C5009
UPDATE: TSB Report#A17W0172: The Springbank Air Training College Piper PA 34-200T Seneca II, registered C-GCCM, departed Calgary Springbank (CYBW) Runway 17 on a final training flight prior to the student's multi-engine rating flight test. There was an instructor and student on board. The aircraft did not climb above 200 feet nor accelerate while on the runway heading. The aircraft rolled to the left entering a steep left turn and collided with terrain. There was a post-crash fire, and the two occupants sustained fatal injuries, the aircraft was destroyed.
If you can't get above 200 feet, how are you going to do a circuit?

Does that school simulate failures on takeoff, on the actual takeoff?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

Wammer
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#42 Post by Wammer » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:14 pm

cncpc wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:40 pm
CpnCrunch wrote:http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017C5009
UPDATE: TSB Report#A17W0172: The Springbank Air Training College Piper PA 34-200T Seneca II, registered C-GCCM, departed Calgary Springbank (CYBW) Runway 17 on a final training flight prior to the student's multi-engine rating flight test. There was an instructor and student on board. The aircraft did not climb above 200 feet nor accelerate while on the runway heading. The aircraft rolled to the left entering a steep left turn and collided with terrain. There was a post-crash fire, and the two occupants sustained fatal injuries, the aircraft was destroyed.
If you can't get above 200 feet, how are you going to do a circuit?

Does that school simulate failures on takeoff, on the actual takeoff?
No.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#43 Post by pdw » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:46 am

RE:
cncpc wrote:Does that school simulate failures on takeoff, on the actual takeoff?
Since it does not, it maybe opens to another question:
What IS the most suitable practise regimen for this failure in the first 200ft of climb, shortly past ground-effect and the departure threshold ?
---------- ADS -----------
  

YBW-Kid
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:51 pm

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#44 Post by YBW-Kid » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:15 am

Departing YBW runway 17 there is a road and deep ditch 860 feet directly south of the end of the runway. Witnesses have reported the aircraft did not accelerate normally on the runway and the aircraft appeared to struggle into the air and climb poorly. Faced with an engine failure or partial loss of power after liftoff, closing the throttles would have to have been identified without any hesitation over the runway and in reality may not really be an option at YBW because of the close proximity of that road and ditch to the south of the runway in the overrun area. Immediately beyond that road to the south is a field with only 2600 feet before the next obstacle - the four lane Trans Canada Highway. Witnesses reported the aircraft crossing over the Trans Canada Highway in a flat profile at approximately 100 feet AGL. They described the aircraft as not climbing and slightly descending in a flat attitude.

Every multi-engined Pilot is trained to keep the airplane flying if possible. Anyone with any multi engine experience knows that the only chance you have to attain any climb profile with one engine in a light twin is to as quickly as possible clean the aircraft up with gear/ flaps and the windmilling prop on the engine not producing power. Putting myself into that situation with some type of engine loss on takeoff (if thats what happened) I could only imagine how challenging that would be to stagger into the air and be faced with the obstacles ahead me.

After crossing the Trans Canada Highway only 2000 feet to the south, is a major power line which is 75 feet high at the poles. It runs southeast of the centreline departure track of Runway 17. At 100 feet as witnesses reported, you would be faced with possibly striking the power lines, going under them, or putting it down in the field before them. The other option, to force the aircraft to climb over the obstacle is not good if altitude and airspeed are not on your side. Struggling to climb and raising the nose would likely decay airspeed to the point where VMC on one engine would be lost. Turning the aircraft to the left to attempt to parallel the large power line has risks on one engine low to the ground especially if the turn is made towards a failed engine.

A second smaller power line 30 feet high runs north south from the airport and is located 1000 feet to the east of of the departure path of Runway 17. That would add an additional obstacle and challenging the option to parallel the first set of wires. Witness reports the aircraft rolling to the left and striking the ground. The accident site is in-between both power lines in a small wedged shaped area immediately south of the large power lines and to the west of the smaller power lines.

I'm so very sorry for those who were involved in this accident and even if my thoughts are determined not to be correct or the full story, that perhaps some positive may come from this tragedy. Maybe somebody reading about this accident may one day use what they learned to recognize and avoid a similar situation for themselves.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2626
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#45 Post by PilotDAR » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:04 pm

Perhaps this sad event creates interest in reviewing single engined performance. I like this article:

http://www.cfidarren.com/p8740-25.pdf
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2852
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#46 Post by CpnCrunch » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:16 pm

According to the POH it should climb at about 400fpm on one engine at 3750lb / 4000ft. Of course that's with gear up and inop engine feathered.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2626
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#47 Post by PilotDAR » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:40 pm

Its also worth noting that some props cannot be feathered if the engine speed slows to less than around 1000RPM. This is a possible characteristic a pilot should know before the engine failure...
---------- ADS -----------
  

photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6573
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Making aviation exhausting, everywhere

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#48 Post by photofly » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:32 pm

I’m sorry, I can’t read anything you write because of the crazy animated advertising.
B47E9E27-827D-49B2-B3A1-31D880986FF5.jpeg
B47E9E27-827D-49B2-B3A1-31D880986FF5.jpeg (806.71 KiB) Viewed 1170 times
---------- ADS -----------
  
“This isn’t flying, it’s falling. With style.”

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2626
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#49 Post by PilotDAR » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:25 pm

But it says that I'M the 1.000.000th visitor!?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
'97 Tercel
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:19 pm

Re: 26 Oct 2017 - 2 dead after plane crash near Springbank Airport, west of Calgary

#50 Post by '97 Tercel » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:32 am

Yeah this site has become painful to look at...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”