Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

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Cat Driver
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#26 Post by Cat Driver » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:52 pm

For sure I am an ass and everything else that one can think of.

But I managed to get through a very long career without bending metal and am enjoying retirement with the money I was paid for being an ass.

:mrgreen:
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#27 Post by YYZSaabGuy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:32 am

Cat Driver wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:52 pm
For sure I am an ass and everything else that one can think of.

But I managed to get through a very long career without bending metal and am enjoying retirement with the money I was paid for being an ass.

:mrgreen:
The vast majority of professional pilots manage to get through their careers without bending metal. That makes you the rule, not the exception.

So: as you're unexceptional, why the endless bragging about your unexceptional performance?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#28 Post by atphat » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:52 am

YYZSaabGuy wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:32 am
Cat Driver wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:52 pm
For sure I am an ass and everything else that one can think of.

But I managed to get through a very long career without bending metal and am enjoying retirement with the money I was paid for being an ass.

:mrgreen:
The vast majority of professional pilots manage to get through their careers without bending metal. That makes you the rule, not the exception.y

So: as you're unexceptional, why the endless bragging about your unexceptional performance?

:mrgreen:
Seriously. That’s like bragging about being able to read.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#29 Post by pelmet » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:26 am

bobcaygeon wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:05 pm
An empty Metro 3 at -15C would definitely maintain on one engine.
I’ve got a 1000 hrs in a twin otter with -20’s on floats loaded to the nuts with lots of time where landing on water isn’t an option. I’ll take the flight in the empty Metro thanks.
While I have no Metro experience, I am 99.999% sure that I would be willing to fly one empty with the gear stuck down on a -15 degree day. And probably on a plus 30 degree day as well. Just like a one engine inoperative ferry flight, there is increased risk. I doubt in this accident case that there would be any problem shutting down an engine and continuing on with the gear down.

Arguments that it is dangerous from guys who tell us stories about taking off with ice on wings and no doubt somehow figured out interesting ways to get into small airports up north in crap weather in the old days is.......complete hypocrisy.

Pelmet....no bent metal. fabic, or composite yet.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#30 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:49 am

This is the way of the internet, at least I have lived a life in aviation where I have done things that I can brag about and do so using my real name on these forums.

So atphat and the rest of you why don't you post something you have done that would show you accomplished something out of the ordinary you can be proud of?

For instance I had a really interesting opportunity to spend time in Athens Greece as a guest of the Greek CAA in the capacity of an adviser in the setting up of a Twin Otter airline operation and they paid for all my wife's expenses as part of the deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirSea_Lines

There you go that is one of many things that I can look back on and remember with a bit of satisfaction.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#31 Post by Victory » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:59 am

Personally I don't fly at all. Too risky.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#32 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:09 pm

Congrats cat, you "flew a desk" in Greece and didn't crash it. Hardly making the point you are after. I have more respect for PilotDAR than you, and he recently wrecked a plane.

Flight testing and instructing in unique GA aircraft is more risky than flying an A320 sim in France. Sorry, but your career is nothing worth bragging about. Glad you enjoyed it, but shut up, nobody cares.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#33 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:35 pm

Congrats cat, you "flew a desk" in Greece and didn't crash it. Hardly making the point you are after. I have more respect for PilotDAR than you, and he recently wrecked a plane.
Goingnowherefast I have read all your posts here on Avcanada and realise you are relatively new to aviation and barely started a career as a pilot but that is no excuse for what arguably is one of the most thoughtless and stupid statements ever posted here.

PilotDAR is a personal friend of mine who has stayed here in my home and I am appalled that you would make such an insensitive statement about him having wrecked a plane.

He was nearly killed and is still recovering, I keep in touch with him and have no idea what happened because at this point in time that is not important, what is important is his recovery.

You have really stepped across the line of decency with such a comment.....unless of course you know something about PilotDAR and his accident I don't.

And just to correct your insulting remark that all I did was fly a desk you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.

My working with the Greek CAA came about after I was finished working for AirSea Lines where I was the person they had hired training their pilots set up the company flight training and help write their operations manual in 2007 / 2008.

So you are so far out of touch with reality if I were you I would just crawl into a cave and stay there.

Chuck Ellsworth // Cat Driver.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#34 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:24 pm

I have great respect for PilotDAR. He is smart, capable, humble and willing to help others. You on the other hand are arrogant and are rarely helpful. You take every opportunity to brag and belittle. My point is that you may not have bent any tin, but that means very little about you or your career. PilotDAR was in a very unfortunate situation, but I consider him one of the great posters on this site. Polar opposite to my opinion of you.

Now you will claim that you don't care about my opinion of you. However you took the effort to look up my history on avcanada and take the effort to constantly argue with me. Clearly you are concerned with my opinion of you.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#35 Post by YYZSaabGuy » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:29 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:49 am

So atphat and the rest of you why don't you post something you have done that would show you accomplished something out of the ordinary you can be proud of?

For instance I had a really interesting opportunity to spend time in Athens Greece as a guest of the Greek CAA in the capacity of an adviser in the setting up of a Twin Otter airline operation and they paid for all my wife's expenses as part of the deal.
Cat, that's just wonderful. Good for you.

And since we're swapping out-of-the-ordinary accomplishments, I'll just point out that I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once. So y'know, there's that. :roll:
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#36 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:10 am

Funny things is, this has really very little to do with the question of flight on one engine (and the enevitable "Cat fight" these threads tend to spawn) but more to do with mishandling the aircraft after landing. With the experience level of the captains on carriers like this one, this will become more commonplace. Assymetritic thrust and tiller steering can become a bit squirrely, especially when a wee bit too much reverse enters the equation. Things happen fast.
Was our friend PilotDar at the wheel?
Fly safe.
Illya
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#37 Post by Rockie » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:08 am

Transport jets have very specific provisions in the MEL for gear down flight to ensure the required performance criteria are met. Do retractable turboprops not have something similar?
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#38 Post by goingnowherefast » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:41 pm

704 aircraft are required to be able to maintain a positive rate of climb on take-off with the gear down. The King Air 100 AFM has a notation on the accelerate-go performance charts that says the aircraft cannot climb with the gear down above a certain weight/altitude/temp combination.
This is also flight test data with new, properly rigged airframe and props that aren't chewed up by gravel. A 40,000 hour, beat to piss old plane won't perform the same.

To directly answer your question about the MEL, no there typically isn't anything. It is done under a ferry permit with no performance guarantees other than extrapolating 1st segment performance.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#39 Post by Maynard » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:01 am

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:10 am
Funny things is, this has really very little to do with the question of flight on one engine (and the enevitable "Cat fight" these threads tend to spawn) but more to do with mishandling the aircraft after landing. With the experience level of the captains on carriers like this one, this will become more commonplace. Assymetritic thrust and tiller steering can become a bit squirrely, especially when a wee bit too much reverse enters the equation. Things happen fast.
Was our friend PilotDar at the wheel?
Fly safe.
Illya
The metro doesn't have tiller steering.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#40 Post by VSF » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:39 am

If they were on a ferry permit, gear down, because of a hydraulic issue, they could possibly have had no nose wheel steering whatsoever (other than castering).
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#41 Post by up on one » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:33 pm

There are a few hydraulic issues that require gear swings to be completed after the snag is rectified to have the book signed off. In a situation like this, I would consider it a lot safer to obtain a ferry permit and fly according to the limitations than attempt to perform gear swings on the beautiful aprons of the north.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#42 Post by dogfood » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:10 pm

Maynard wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:01 am
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:10 am
Funny things is, this has really very little to do with the question of flight on one engine (and the enevitable "Cat fight" these threads tend to spawn) but more to do with mishandling the aircraft after landing. With the experience level of the captains on carriers like this one, this will become more commonplace. Assymetritic thrust and tiller steering can become a bit squirrely, especially when a wee bit too much reverse enters the equation. Things happen fast.
Was our friend PilotDar at the wheel?
Fly safe.
Illya
The metro doesn't have tiller steering.
Not true although rare it was an option to have a tiller on a metro some aircraft do have it.. either way they have hydraulic operated nose wheel steering by the rudder pedals same concept as having a tiller
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#43 Post by lostaviator » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:54 pm

Mines bigger than yours.... Good ol' avcanada.

Hydraulic issues... I'm thinking would mess with the nose steering. Oil problems would mess with the reverse pitch on landing. Snowing....

Dealt a crap hand I'd say.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#44 Post by oldtimer » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 am

The SA 227AC Metro has hydraulic nose wheel steering to supplement nose wheel caster. There is an item in the Limitations section of the AFM that says do not arm the nose wheel steering if there has been a hydraulic system failure. Perimeter Airlines published an excellent article on negative caster of the nose wheel steering that says basically that if the airplane starts to veer off the straight and narrow, negative caster will have a tendency to increase nose wheel deflection. it is a good guess the pilot received this training. I did and I did not work for Perimeter, they just put this training paper out there. The Metro is one of the most directionally stable airplane I had ever flown but the steering effect on landing is like pushing a rope until nose wheel steering is engaged. Most well trained Metro pilots do not engage nose wheel steering until below 10 knots. If the airplane is kept straight, it will remain straight. Differential power, differential braking is more than adequate to safely land the airplane even in a good crosswind. if that is not enough, then supplement steering with a bit of body English and a health dose of profanity delivered with great passion. It may help. As for OEI, a lightly loaded Metro 111 has an abundance of performance. Metro 11 not so much. Maximum flap extension is 1/4 flap until the flight is committed to a landing. I would personally do a flaps up landing. Thompson runway is long enough that a flapless landing is a "kiss your sister" operation. Add OEI and it increases the pucker factor but careful planning will save the day.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#45 Post by Maynard » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:41 pm

oldtimer wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 am
Most well trained Metro pilots do not engage nose wheel steering until below 10 knots.
That's quite low. Normal taxi speed is 15 kts. 40 knots is plenty slow. Throw in a crosswind, or an icy, or slushy, or snowy, or water covered runway, and you'd be well into the rhubarb by the time you hit 10 knots without engaging the steering. (Speaking as a well trained Metro pilot)
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#46 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:34 pm

Speaking as a well trained Metro pilot (FSI) albeit, not a current one, I always used the tiller (yup, we had them) with great care until the rudder became effective. On landing, run out of rudder effectiveness, then gently on the tiller. Doesn’t tell us why the subject aircraft wandered off the runway though. Once she’s on the ground, barring something untoward, she should stay there.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#47 Post by switchflicker » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:29 pm

As a well trained Metro Pilot, I went through the time frame where the NWS was prohibited from being used. Then for a long time it was only to be armed after the a/c was at taxi speed and disarmed and CONFIRMED OFF before takeoff.
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#48 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:06 pm

So, from one we’ll trained Metro driver to the other two well trained Metro drivers, why did this one not remain within the confines of the runway?
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#49 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:10 pm

lostaviator wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:54 pm
Mines bigger than yours.... Good ol' avcanada.

Hydraulic issues... I'm thinking would mess with the nose steering. Oil problems would mess with the reverse pitch on landing. Snowing....

Dealt a crap hand I'd say.
So, “dealt a crap hand” will be the findings of the investigation then?
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Re: Perimeter off the runway in Thompson

#50 Post by switchflicker » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:53 am

Probably the sick engine was dealt a crap hand during the flare and went into NTSing. Either the crew did or didn't pull the stop and feather control. Either way the forward or reverse thrust may have been quite aggressively asymmetric. Couple that with the NWS off due to the hydraulic issue and the excrement hit the oscillating air movement machine. That's what you will read in the TSB report.
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