Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

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anofly
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#51 Post by anofly » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:20 pm

crumb fellas... wind ..
Think about how long and hard you have to train, apprentice, practice, be observed etc, to get an airshow surface waiver so you can fool around over a runway ..... now think about how long this path was to be doing the same thing at 20 odd feet over the water....
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#52 Post by Cat Driver » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:25 pm

Think about how long and hard you have to train, apprentice, practice, be observed etc, to get an airshow surface waiver so you can fool around over a runway .....
In Europe our airshow display licenses were restricted to two hundred feet above the ground....and they policed it with radar guns. The first time you got lower you were given a warning.

The second time they suspended your airdisplay license.

Oh, by the way getting the license was not easy and there was an annual flight retest.

Two hundred feet was a very good floor because then all the spectators could see the airplane all the time....not so for the surface display, only those up close can see it.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#53 Post by pdw » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:26 am

The "200" included military as well ? ... thinking about the hunter tragedy...
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#54 Post by AirFrame » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:31 am

pdw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:26 am
The "200" included military as well ? ... thinking about the hunter tragedy...
I don't think the Hunter was aiming for a ground-level pass... He just f-ed up his top gate and totally blew through his floor on the way down.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#55 Post by pdw » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:44 am

That's right, wasn't quite over the airport yet when initiating that fateful loop inbound to the show area from treetop level.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#56 Post by PilotDAR » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:23 pm

Chances of survival are inversely proportionate to angle of arrival. If the surface is water, this rule is made even more significant. The water will grab an errantly flown aircraft, yet while grabbing the plane water does not yield to relieve crash forces much. Mr. Halladay did not appear to flying to assure a safe contact with the water.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#57 Post by Broken Slinky » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:07 am

5x5 wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:29 pm
that's exactly what Icon wants you to be doing - based on their marketing and promotional material.
Seems that's the marketing for AirCam as well. Noticing a lot of photos and videos on Facebook showing pilots running low and fast over ground and water.
Sure doesn't leave a lot of "outs" when the law of averages catches up to you.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#58 Post by mosky » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 pm

For the Aircam i would have to disagree.

First, the words 'fast' and 'Aircam' do not belong together in the same sentence.

Typical aircam flying is at 50 to 60 mph and with Vso of 38 mph you have a good margin (1.5+) over your stall speed. Given that at these speeds you're still only running about 1/4 throttle since the aircam has twice (2x100hp) the horsepower of the Icon there is power to spare should you have to climb or turn to avoid any hazards and 200hp at 1,600# GW at 55 mph will give one heck of a climb gradient.

Not to say that low flying of any kind is not without it's hazards but if you look at any of Lockwood's videos you'd be very hard pressed to see any of the maneuvering like some other's videos. i don't think you can find one of their videos showing any more than 30 to 45 degrees of bank and certainly not right on the surface of the water or land. All of Lockwood's videos are also prefaced with a disclaimer about low flying WARNING - Flying low over terrain involves risk and requires additional diligence and planning to avoid potential collision with with terrain, wires and ground based obstacles. Always make a reconnaissance flight over your intended route at a safe altitude to check for obstacles, wires and turbulence before flying low over the terrain.

The aircam is marketed as 'Low and Slow' , not as a jetski with wings and certainly not in the same manner as the Icon. I honestly cannot see the point of flying something like the aircam over 1,000' AGL. it's just MADE to fly at less than 1,000' with unmatched visibility. Having enough power to take off on ONE engine (even on amphibs) certainly adds an element of safety and security when flying the aircraft down low. Engine failure is simple. Advance both throttles (high compression Rotax = 'dead' engine with simply stop and cannot windmill), add some rudder to keep straight and fly away.

Certainly not the same marketing in my opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkQOy-lS7-8
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#59 Post by pdw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:08 am

WARNING - Flying low over terrain involves risk and requires additional diligence and planning to avoid potential collision with with terrain, wires and ground based obstacles. Always make a reconnaissance flight over your intended route at a safe altitude to check for obstacles, wires and turbulence before flying low over the terrain.
When Canadian cigarrette warnings first showed up on the outside packaging years ago it was a fairly basic message too; but there the sales have something to do with addiction. Lately, and I'm sure most have heard it on the news, the most recent package proposals are starting to read like you're a goner if you touch them. Where does the aircraft buyer first come in contact with such a warning.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#60 Post by Broken Slinky » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 am

mosky wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 pm
For the Aircam i would have to disagree.

First, the words 'fast' and 'Aircam' do not belong together in the same sentence.

Typical aircam flying is at 50 to 60 mph and with Vso of 38 mph you have a good margin (1.5+) over your stall speed. Given that at these speeds you're still only running about 1/4 throttle since the aircam has twice (2x100hp) the horsepower of the Icon there is power to spare should you have to climb or turn to avoid any hazards and 200hp at 1,600# GW at 55 mph will give one heck of a climb gradient.

Not to say that low flying of any kind is not without it's hazards but if you look at any of Lockwood's videos you'd be very hard pressed to see any of the maneuvering like some other's videos. i don't think you can find one of their videos showing any more than 30 to 45 degrees of bank and certainly not right on the surface of the water or land. All of Lockwood's videos are also prefaced with a disclaimer about low flying WARNING - Flying low over terrain involves risk and requires additional diligence and planning to avoid potential collision with with terrain, wires and ground based obstacles. Always make a reconnaissance flight over your intended route at a safe altitude to check for obstacles, wires and turbulence before flying low over the terrain.

The aircam is marketed as 'Low and Slow' , not as a jetski with wings and certainly not in the same manner as the Icon. I honestly cannot see the point of flying something like the aircam over 1,000' AGL. it's just MADE to fly at less than 1,000' with unmatched visibility. Having enough power to take off on ONE engine (even on amphibs) certainly adds an element of safety and security when flying the aircraft down low. Engine failure is simple. Advance both throttles (high compression Rotax = 'dead' engine with simply stop and cannot windmill), add some rudder to keep straight and fly away.

Certainly not the same marketing in my opinion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkQOy-lS7-8
Just take a look at these times: 0:25, 0:41, 0:57, 2:28, 2:54, 3:37, 3:40, 4:29, 4:56, 5:44. They were less than 500' from boats and built up areas, less then 50' off land masses or water and flying over flocks of birds. Disclaimers or not, they're promoting questionable flying behaviors too. Even a crash at slow 30mph can be deadly. It's all about kinetic energy.
I can't preach though, I've done my fair share of flying, boating and driving that could have easily gotten me killed if just one thing went wrong. They have to sell aircraft and no one is going to buy a toy based on a 3 hour video in straight and level flight at 9,500' in perfectly clear skies with the autopilot engaged.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#61 Post by GyvAir » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:06 pm

Broken Slinky wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:06 am
2:28
Looks closer to 50 inches than 50 feet. Not exactly a runway smooth surface under them, either.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#62 Post by tps8903 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:05 pm

Seems he had a cocktail of alcohol and drugs in his system according to the autopsy. The quantities are unknown (except the 10mg of alcohol). I'm sure it is a contributing factor.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#63 Post by ahramin » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:34 pm

tps8903 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:05 pm
Seems he had a cocktail of alcohol and drugs in his system according to the autopsy. The quantities are unknown (except the 10mg of alcohol). I'm sure it is a contributing factor.
Source?
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#64 Post by rookiepilot » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:42 pm

ahramin wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:34 pm
tps8903 wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:05 pm
Seems he had a cocktail of alcohol and drugs in his system according to the autopsy. The quantities are unknown (except the 10mg of alcohol). I'm sure it is a contributing factor.
Source?
https://globalnews.ca/news/3976546/roy- ... ane-crash/
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#65 Post by CpnCrunch » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:05 pm

0.01 is very low...that's one glass of wine 2 hours ago, and is way below the driving limit.

The Ambien is probably more likely to have been a factor. 50ng/mL increases the risk of a motor vehicle accident, and he had 72ng/Ml.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#66 Post by MrWings » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:33 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:05 pm
0.01 is very low...that's one glass of wine 2 hours ago, and is way below the driving limit.
Yes. You are correct. But two hours since last drink is no where near the required 8 hour flying limit.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#67 Post by photofly » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:14 am

Steady, there. Nobody here knows whether he had one glass two hours ago or four glasses eight hours ago. “One glass two hours ago” was just an example of something that might have resulted in 0.01, not drawn from any knowledge of what he might have drunk or when.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#68 Post by tps8903 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:35 am

Regardless of amounts he had measurable amounts of impairing substances in his body. Because it is also poly-drug use it is very difficult to say exactly how impaired he was. The combination of drugs and alcohol at a minimum will be at least as impairing as the sum of their parts, but more often will have exponential effect on his faculties. Ambian (CNS depressant), alcohol (CNS depressant), Morphine (Metabolite of a Narcotic Analgesic) will compound the impairment.

I found that people who take these cocktails often take an amphetamine to mask the signs of impairment. Who knows if this is the case here.

Unfortunately alcohol is the only substance here that has a quantifiable correlation between BAC and impairment. So we may never know how impaired he was.

All of this makes me very sad. He was a hero of mine growing up in Toronto.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#69 Post by SuperchargedRS » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:31 am

Spoiler alert drugs/booze didn't kill the baseball player, his attitude and history of bad decisions killed him, he's been quoted many times as saying he likes flying like a "fighter pilot" low and fast, which is also exactly how icon markets their aircraft, and exactly what he was going when he crashed.

I'm sure icon will use the trace amount of drugs to point the finger away from them and how they market their product to be used, and no doubtfully how they conduct their inhouse training.


But yeah, didn't have jack diddly to do with drugs, had to do with how me liked to fly and how he was taught to fly.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#70 Post by PilotDAR » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:57 am

drugs/booze didn't kill the baseball player, his attitude and history of bad decisions killed him, he's been quoted many times as saying he likes flying like a "fighter pilot" low and fast, which is also exactly how icon markets their aircraft, and exactly what he was going when he crashed.
This.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#71 Post by pelmet » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:26 pm

tps8903 wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:35 am
Regardless of amounts he had measurable amounts of impairing substances in his body.
The biggest impairing substance in his body was his brain(ie thought process).
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#72 Post by CpnCrunch » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:49 pm

SuperchargedRS wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:31 am
Spoiler alert drugs/booze didn't kill the baseball player, his attitude and history of bad decisions killed him, he's been quoted many times as saying he likes flying like a "fighter pilot" low and fast, which is also exactly how icon markets their aircraft, and exactly what he was going when he crashed.

I'm sure icon will use the trace amount of drugs to point the finger away from them and how they market their product to be used, and no doubtfully how they conduct their inhouse training.


But yeah, didn't have jack diddly to do with drugs, had to do with how me liked to fly and how he was taught to fly.
It could have been a combination of both. Maybe if he hadn't been so strung out, he might have recovered before hitting the water. Although you could say his reckless attitude caused both the dangerous flying and his drug use.
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Re: Plane registered to Roy Halladay crashes in Gulf off Florida

#73 Post by PilotDAR » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:13 am

Hopefully, the primary takeaway message for newer pilots here is don't aggressively maneuver your aircraft close to the surface, you can loose reference, even in nice flying conditions, and won't have the reference, nor time to recover. The avoidance of drugs and alcohol should be self evident!
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