"Gear up" - "Positive rate"

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pelmet
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"Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#1 Post by pelmet » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:26 pm

Just happened upon two different but somewhat related stories in the last hour. Thought I might post it....

Sometimes it things work out OK.....
https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2017/11/02/s ... dium=email

Sometimes they don't....
http://avherald.com/h?article=48d1e3ae

A few years ago the same thing happened where I work on a narrowbody. Damaged the main gear but they got airborne. Best to wait for a good positive rate. There is no rush. Would definitely advise not attempting the first example.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#2 Post by PilotDAR » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:57 pm

Is the Hawker like an executive jetski?
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#3 Post by 170 to xray » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:43 am

Ah.....no.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#4 Post by Victory » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:26 am

10:16:24 PF take off, my controls
10:16:25 PNF your controls
10:16:27 PNF spoiler is closed
10:16:30 PNF autofeather armed
10:16:33 PF looks like spring
10:16:35 PNF yeah, power is checked
10:16:36 PNF 80 knots
10:16:37 PF checked
10:16:40 PNF V1, rotate
10:16:42 Background click sound, probably gear lever UP
10:16:43 PNF upps, sorry
Can't help but wonder if this was a contributing factor. I've never understood guys that make little comments like this during a critical phase.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#5 Post by PilotDAR » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:48 am

With experience, it's easy to get complacent, we get good at what we do, and it gets easier, so we allow other things to interject (interfere). The complacency is the first Swiss cheese hole lining up, The other holes can line up pretty fast after that! I learned this as a very hard lesson last summer, I let my guard down, confident in the other pilot's handling of the aircraft, and it ended poorly. There is no reason to allow complacency, nor hot dog aircraft.

Those of us who fly are so lucky to have this as a vocation or pastime, why not simply appreciate it within the limitations and standard operating procedures for the plane?
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#6 Post by pelmet » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:43 am

There can be little time to do any preventative action when someone decides to quickly retract the gear. Three days after starting this thread, I did a flight in the jumpseat that was a training flight for an experienced F/O. To my shock, after the initiation of the rotation but with the main gear still firmly planted on the ground, the check captain says "positive climb" almost in a rushed sounding manner. The F/O immediately says "gear up" and the captain quickly selects the gear up. Fortunately, that familiar click sound from the solenoid that is heard when the airplane actually gets airborne happened about half a second before the up selection was made. I should have said something but it happened so fast, I was just left on the initial climb thinking..."Holy S__T" and wondering what would be the most effective word to yell in such a situation. In the end, I guess the protection system will work but I really don't need to find out in the real aircraft.

There is no rush. You are not going to have an engine failure. Just wait for a few seconds to say "positive rate/climb" which is supposed to be based on two separate indications.

Good layover though.
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Last edited by pelmet on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#7 Post by PilotDAR » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:56 am

There is no rush.
Indeed! For a smaller retractable on a longer runway, wouldn't you rather delay the retraction of the gear, until a land straight ahead was no longer possible? No point bellying in when you could glide back onto the wheels. This could apply to a light twin too!
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#8 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:20 pm

PilotDar, some planes go through their max retract speeds pretty quick. I get the pos rate call, that gear is coming up. Decision is made. We is flying. Anything after that, I’ll deal with it in the air. No guessing. Shall I leave it down......till when.....nope. Pos rate...gear up.
Cheers
Illya
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#9 Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:53 am

I've got a couple hundred hours in one such plane. We'd call retract when the VSI needle showed anything positive. The gear transit light would often extinguish once the plane was already faster than the gear retraction speed. Shy of pitching near 15 degrees up, or lifting the gear as soon as you became airborne, it was impossible. The only exception might be a hot summer day fully loaded.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#10 Post by AuxBatOn » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:02 am

So you oversped the gear knowingly?

Why not use pitch and/or power modulation to avoid an overspeed?
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#11 Post by Therewewere » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:05 am

That is why at a lot of airlines the call is "Positive RATES" Where you are looking for the VSI as well as altimeter increase. If you use this some of the stuff that has been described in here will be avoided.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#12 Post by pelmet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:32 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:20 pm
PilotDar, some planes go through their max retract speeds pretty quick. I get the pos rate call, that gear is coming up. Decision is made. We is flying. Anything after that, I’ll deal with it in the air. No guessing. Shall I leave it down......till when.....nope. Pos rate...gear up.
Cheers
Illya
Out of curiosity, on which types did you have this problem? I know the SR-71 had this problem. Perhaps there are a few more. In general, waiting a second or two is just fine....ie...there no rush in most cases with perhaps the occasional exception(which Ilya will let us know about very soon I'm sure).
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#13 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:35 pm

Never had that issue, going nowhere fast, pitch that puppy up, an retract the gear. Done
The max retract speed is there for a reason. Might be structural.
Illya
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#14 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 pm

pelmet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:32 pm
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:20 pm
PilotDar, some planes go through their max retract speeds pretty quick. I get the pos rate call, that gear is coming up. Decision is made. We is flying. Anything after that, I’ll deal with it in the air. No guessing. Shall I leave it down......till when.....nope. Pos rate...gear up.
Cheers
Illya
Out of curiosity, on which types did you have this problem? I know the SR-71 had this problem. Perhaps there are a few more. In general, waiting a second or two is just fine....ie...there no rush in most cases with perhaps the occasional exception(which Ilya will let us know about very soon I'm sure).
Don’t think he was talking a bout a second or two, but leaving it down till he runs out of runway? I’d rather be cleaned up and climbing than estimating how much runway I can still get back to.
Illya
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#15 Post by pelmet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:46 pm

Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 pm
pelmet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:32 pm
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:20 pm
PilotDar, some planes go through their max retract speeds pretty quick. I get the pos rate call, that gear is coming up. Decision is made. We is flying. Anything after that, I’ll deal with it in the air. No guessing. Shall I leave it down......till when.....nope. Pos rate...gear up.
Cheers
Illya
Out of curiosity, on which types did you have this problem? I know the SR-71 had this problem. Perhaps there are a few more. In general, waiting a second or two is just fine....ie...there no rush in most cases with perhaps the occasional exception(which Ilya will let us know about very soon I'm sure).
Don’t think he was talking a bout a second or two, but leaving it down till he runs out of runway? I’d rather be cleaned up and climbing than estimating how much runway I can still get back to.
Illya
True, but he di mention that it was for "smaller retractable" which is open to interpretation but I assumed aircraft like a Cessna 182RG, the type of aircraft where some will keep the gear down for a longer period of time than on a short runway . You did mention that you would retract after getting a "a pos rate call" which is most likely in significantly larger types. Could be mixing apples with oranges here.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#16 Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:16 pm

In my case, I don't work there anymore for a plethora of reasons. That being one of the minor ones.
It's a bad precedence to set and I'm not condoning this. Being 3 kts above the retraction speed for the last 2 seconds of the retraction isn't going to break anything.

It was a twin turbine with rotation and gear retraction speed too close together.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#17 Post by AuxBatOn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:11 pm

If you accept 2-3 kts above, are you going to accept 5 kts? 10 kts? 20 kts? Where is your limit if it isn't the limit imposed by the manufacturer and your CoA?

If it's "only" 2-3 kts, why can't you pitch up 2-3 more degrees or bring the engines back a couple of percents?

Discipline is what makes a good pilot. You can go right to the limits, but don't exceed them. It just makes all of us look bad...
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#18 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:17 pm

If you accept 2-3 kts above, are you going to accept 5 kts? 10 kts? 20 kts? Where is your limit if it isn't the limit imposed by the manufacturer and your CoA?

If it's "only" 2-3 kts, why can't you pitch up 2-3 more degrees or bring the engines back a couple of percents?

Discipline is what makes a good pilot. You can go right to the limits, but don't exceed them. It just makes all of us look bad...
The above is bang on. :mrgreen:
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#19 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:41 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:16 pm
In my case, I don't work there anymore for a plethora of reasons. That being one of the minor ones.
It's a bad precedence to set and I'm not condoning this. Being 3 kts above the retraction speed for the last 2 seconds of the retraction isn't going to break anything.

It was a twin turbine with rotation and gear retraction speed too close together.
Thinking one of the reasons is your lack of concern over limitations? Do you KNOW that being 3 knots over retraction speed isn’t going to break anything? Are you a test pilot?
Illya
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#20 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:47 pm

pelmet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:46 pm
Illya Kuryakin wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:41 pm
pelmet wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:32 pm


Out of curiosity, on which types did you have this problem? I know the SR-71 had this problem. Perhaps there are a few more. In general, waiting a second or two is just fine....ie...there no rush in most cases with perhaps the occasional exception(which Ilya will let us know about very soon I'm sure).
Don’t think he was talking a bout a second or two, but leaving it down till he runs out of runway? I’d rather be cleaned up and climbing than estimating how much runway I can still get back to.
Illya
True, but he di mention that it was for "smaller retractable" which is open to interpretation but I assumed aircraft like a Cessna 182RG, the type of aircraft where some will keep the gear down for a longer period of time than on a short runway . You did mention that you would retract after getting a "a pos rate call" which is most likely in significantly larger types. Could be mixing apples with oranges here.
I can see it with a single. 337’s leave gear down for a while (1000 feet? Don’t fly one) because rheir cleaner with the wheels down than during retraction.
Illya
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#21 Post by Schooner69A » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:51 pm

The 337 has less drag with the gear up than with the gear down. However, while the gear is retracting, the drag goes up significantly. Hence, during an engine failure, the gear is NOT selected up until a safe altitude/airspeed is reached.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#22 Post by pelmet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:57 pm

Schooner69A wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:51 pm
The 337 has less drag with the gear up than with the gear down. However, while the gear is retracting, the drag goes up significantly. Hence, during an engine failure, the gear is NOT selected up until a safe altitude/airspeed is reached.
Actually, if you have the gear door mod by Uvalde(from Uvalde, Texas), the rear doors are removed along with all that drag. It wasn't specifically mentioned in the official paperwork, but I changed my procedure to retracting the gear immediately when flying a version with this mod.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#23 Post by complexintentions » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:08 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:02 am
So you oversped the gear knowingly?

Why not use pitch and/or power modulation to avoid an overspeed?
This.

If you're going too fast to raise the gear, why not just slow down? Some of the posters make it sound like they're helpless to do anything about controlling the speed of the aircraft they're flying.

There is NO hurry to raise the gear, with the one possible exception of a very underpowered aircraft with an engine failure that may struggle even to maintain altitude with the gear down. But using the gear retraction limit speed as an excuse to rush is nonsense. Control your damn airspeed.

This particular bad habit can kill you if you raise the gear too quickly on a go-around off an LVO approach. Especially if you're relying only on baro information from the VSI/altimeter. ALWAYS crosscheck with the radalt. And NO HURRY!

Ask Emirates what happens when you raise the gear before verifying that go-around thrust is set.

I won't even go into the mindset of thinking that exceeding published limitations "just a little bit" is ok. Good lord.
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#24 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:42 pm

complexintentions wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:08 pm
AuxBatOn wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:02 am
So you oversped the gear knowingly?

Why not use pitch and/or power modulation to avoid an overspeed?
This.

If you're going too fast to raise the gear, why not just slow down? Some of the posters make it sound like they're helpless to do anything about controlling the speed of the aircraft they're flying.

There is NO hurry to raise the gear, with the one possible exception of a very underpowered aircraft with an engine failure that may struggle even to maintain altitude with the gear down. But using the gear retraction limit speed as an excuse to rush is nonsense. Control your damn airspeed.

This particular bad habit can kill you if you raise the gear too quickly on a go-around off an LVO approach. Especially if you're relying only on baro information from the VSI/altimeter. ALWAYS crosscheck with the radalt. And NO HURRY!

Ask Emirates what happens when you raise the gear before verifying that go-around thrust is set.

I won't even go into the mindset of thinking that exceeding published limitations "just a little bit" is ok. Good lord.
I find the radalt can be a bit misleading at times and, I’ll admit to sometimes even looking outside to confirm the cars and trucks are getting smaller befor I call pos rate.
Illya
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Re: "Gear up" - "Positive rate"

#25 Post by Schooner69A » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:53 pm

"Actually, if you have the gear door mod by Uvalde(from Uvalde, Texas), the rear doors are removed along with all that drag"

Did I just inadvertently show my age...? (;>0)
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