Can you wobble while landing?

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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#26 Post by photofly » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:13 am

Cat Driver wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:58 pm
How long do you consider the critical phases of takeoff and landing to last?
Personally I consider the critical phase of a take off in a multi engine to be from when power is applied to start the take off run to when the airplane is stable in the climb and climb power is set and the airplane is trimmed to maintain that attitude, generally around four hundred feet.

That is when I do not keep my hand on the power levers.

On landing it is from two hundred feet to when the airplane is clear of the runway.

I am a very simple minded sort of person and taking into consideration I can comfortably fly the machine with one hand on the control column/stick and the other hand on the power levers I see no reason to let the power levers go when flaring for a landing...or on the runway and during the initial start of the climb.
I don't have any argument with anyone who keeps a hand on the throttle(s) at those times.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#27 Post by switchflicker » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:40 am

In my simple mind if is sort of like I would rather have a gun I don't need than need a gun I don't have.

Is that not what Capt. McCrea and I have been saying for years?
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#28 Post by pelmet » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:14 am

Cat Driver wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:23 pm
Back to the original question.

When wobble pumping a 985 you can quit wobbling to attend to another problem for a short period of time because the fuel pressure does not immediately go to zero when you stop wobbling, so you can pause without the engine quitting completely.
Thanks for the info. I suppose it depends on the power setting as to how long you can stop wobbling.

I have also seen a wobble pump on a 1340 equipped aircraft. Anybody know if it is the same?
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#29 Post by pdw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:18 am

I suppose it depends on the power setting as to how long you can stop wobbling.
Sure, each wobble ocillation moves a given amount of fuel. For example while idling off the active to the ramp a few wobbles here and there was good enough to make it over to the parking spot.

Risking a goaround would not have been wise IMO. Deadsticking it in steeply (letting it quit) was the perfect solution, no hand needed on the trigger either (since at that point you don't "have" one nor "need" one).

Can you imagine screwing that one up (that landing) and having to wobble like a fool retracting flap etc ... under full power ... with a load ?
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#30 Post by pelmet » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:18 pm

pdw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:18 am
I suppose it depends on the power setting as to how long you can stop wobbling.
Sure, each wobble ocillation moves a given amount of fuel. For example while idling off the active to the ramp a few wobbles here and there was good enough to make it over to the parking spot.
So...you actually did this in an aircraft where the engine-driven pump was not working? You make it sound like it was normal operation at some point.

Thanks.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#31 Post by peterdillon » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 pm

The main pumps on lots of Beavers are the originals and 60 years old so yes they do quit. Lots now have the STC for the electric pump as a third backup. The wobble pump is kind of low on the centre console which makes it difficult to look out over the engine to land while the other had is down by your foot. Wouldn't dream of not having my hand on the throttle for take off and landing on floats or skis. The most memorable was coming into a small glassy water lake as it was getting dark. Made a turn at low altitude on final approach (bad move) and wasn't aware I was still drifting till I touched the water. The left wing was just about to hit the water at the same time I opened the tap. Ended up being a non event but I can assure you there was no time to reach for anything. In float or ski operations with Beavers and 185's etc unless its rough water or some other special conditions I always short final approach with take off flap and prop in fine pitch and hand on the throttle. There are conditions in bush ops that sometimes require instant action.
Nothing wrong with running your car with the cruise control engaged on ice either I guess. If you feel it start to skid just reach over and shut it off.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#32 Post by TeePeeCreeper » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:34 pm

peterdillon wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 pm
The main pumps on lots of Beavers are the originals and 60 years old so yes they do quit. Lots now have the STC for the electric pump as a third backup. The wobble pump is kind of low on the centre console which makes it difficult to look out over the engine to land while the other had is down by your foot. Wouldn't dream of not having my hand on the throttle for take off and landing on floats or skis. The most memorable was coming into a small glassy water lake as it was getting dark. Made a turn at low altitude on final approach (bad move) and wasn't aware I was still drifting till I touched the water. The left wing was just about to hit the water at the same time I opened the tap. Ended up being a non event but I can assure you there was no time to reach for anything. In float or ski operations with Beavers and 185's etc unless its rough water or some other special conditions I always short final approach with take off flap and prop in fine pitch and hand on the throttle. There are conditions in bush ops that sometimes require instant action.
Nothing wrong with running your car with the cruise control engaged on ice either I guess. If you feel it start to skid just reach over and shut it off.
Are you sure that -2 that you've flown with an STC for an electric fuel pump also relatained the old wobble pump?

News to me as ALL of the STC'ed modified -2's I've flown without a wobble fuel pump didn't have one as part of the STC!!!

As to promote dialogue as far as this thread is concerned...

I thought all "the old timers" stories about "wobbling my way home" were hearsay... until it happened to me.

I was ready to "dead stick it" but fortunately had an able bodied and very understanding right seat passenger. The event in itself was non eventful.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#33 Post by trey kule » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:56 am

Maybe I have forgotten, but is the wobble pump on a beaver not right under the throttle quadrant? It seems to me years ago, one of our pilots wobbled one in, and when he got lined up and happ, just deadsticked it on.

But this
I don't expect you to give a shit, but I'm in favour of hands off the throttle on approach. Learn to pick a power setting that will take you where you want to go, and stick to it. Thereafter If you need extra or less power, make a throttle adjustment and then take your hand off the thing. It's an engine control, not a finger rest. If you do need full power for a go-around it's mixture and prop first, then throttle, so you're holding the wrong control in any case.

As a youngin I was taught that you had one hand on the throttle right through the approach,

Other than needing to pick or scratch various body parts, why would you not have your hand on the power lever, you know, just in case. You do not have to be continually adjusting them.

Mixture. Pitch Power.. really? There are no planes out there that do not have pitch and mixture controls....the wisdom of the FTU.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#34 Post by phillyfan » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:52 am

I have seen it happen more then once where a Beaver friction lock does not work properly. That's usually from people pumping the throttle every start with it tightened all the way. That's a separate thread however. Anyways the guy goes bouncing along over the waves while the power slowly comes back. I have also seen airplanes need power quickly on approach close to the water in gusty conditions. Perhaps its a float thing? The only people who fly with two hands on the wheel in a floatplane are swampers holding the plane level while I sleep.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#35 Post by switchflicker » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:42 am

Has anyone out there had a seat come unlatched in a buck eighty-five? Of course the pin had to be removed so as to get cargo in in the shortest time possible!! Anyhoo if the seat comes unlatched whilst the floats are crawling onto the step, and you join the back seat folks you'll be glad you pulled the throttle on the way back.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#36 Post by shimmydampner » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:41 am

Good googly moogly, we shouldn’t keep our right hand on the throttle on approach and landing now?! I’d love to hear a compelling reason why not, beyond someone’s personal preference. Where else should it be, if not controlling the thrust of the aircraft? That’s akin to saying that once you’re configured and trimmed on approach, you should take your left hand off the control column. Perhaps if all you’re ever doing is taking a light aircraft down a stabilized constant descent angle approach to a huge runway, you might be able to get away with such a bad habit, but like trey pointed out, just because your hand is there doesn’t mean it has to be doing something beyond remaining at the ready. If I’m taking a floatplane to a lake that requires a “chop and drop” approach over terrain features or large trees, you can bet my hand is on the control the whole time. If I’m floating five feet over the tundra trying to drop a ski plane between a pair of three foot high, concrete hard snow drifts, you can bet my hand is on the control the whole time. If I’m dragging an airplane on to a tiny esker or riverbed, or a heavy turboprop into a relatively short strip, you can bet my hand is on the control the whole time, and I’m not going to be too proud to make constant minor adjustments as required to stay exactly on target, and I think I’ll continue to apply that approach even when I’m happily sliding down a glide slope to a nice big unobstructed runway too. I just can’t think of any good reason not to.
I can’t believe this is actually a debate. Don’t we have bigger fish to fry, like the monthly “why is working the ramp a thing” argument? I mean, that’s still not settled, last I checked.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#37 Post by photofly » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:44 am

I think there’s a (typical for AvCanada) bit of misunderstanding going on. Unintentionally, or maybe deliberately just simply to have something to argue with.

Of course you’re going to hold the throttles while taking off and landing, or when making a continuous series of small power adjustments such as on an approach in gusty conditions.

But other than a few choice moments of flight (and mostly not even then) flying is not a matter of split second timing on the power controls and lightning reflexes. Not mine - and not when more than a couple of hundred feet above the ground. Perhaps the “I refuse to let go of the throttle just in case” people could say, in case of what?

It’s s your choice If you want to grip the power controls all the way down a 20 mile approach, but I choose not to. I’ll set the throttle and try to leave it be until I’m preparing for the landing.

Is it important? I don’t know. But it was important enough for Cat to make it a “I refuse to employ pilots who,” thing. Clearly important to him.

Although this isn’t and hasn’t been about flight training, I think TK also had a dig about FTUs too, but I didn’t understand it. Perhaps he can explain it more clearly.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#38 Post by phillyfan » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:14 pm

Switchflicker I have had the seat in a Cessna slide back on me on wheels just as I rotated. I was glad I let go of both the control column and the throttle. Amazing how far away everything looks from back there and how difficult it is to pull yourself back up when you can't reach the dash and the plane's nose is up!
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#39 Post by pelmet » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:51 pm

phillyfan wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:14 pm
Switchflicker I have had the seat in a Cessna slide back on me on wheels just as I rotated. I was glad I let go of both the control column and the throttle. Amazing how far away everything looks from back there and how difficult it is to pull yourself back up when you can't reach the dash and the plane's nose is up!
It is off topic but I ALWAYS check that the seat is properly latched on an aircraft like this at some point prior to takeoff....and once again very thoroughly if the seat was moved again.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#40 Post by Cat Driver » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:37 pm

Is it important? I don’t know. But it was important enough for Cat to make it a “I refuse to employ pilots who,” thing. Clearly important to him.
O.K. let me be clear on what I meant.

It never ceases to amaze me how many pilots use both hands on the control column to flare and land, especially in multi engine airplanes. And they also use both hands on the control column to rotate and in the initial climb out

So, yes I personally would not hire anyone who operates an airplane that way.

Is that clear enough photofly?

Another thing that I am against is flight instructors who teach shoving the prop levers into fine pitch down wind when doing circuits , never could figure out what their thinking process is.

However I do understand that each individual pilot is free to operate their own airplanes any way they choose.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#41 Post by phillyfan » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:49 pm

Its OK pelmet. This thing is so far off topic I had to look back at the original post to find out what the hell we were even talking about.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#42 Post by photofly » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:23 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:37 pm
Is it important? I don’t know. But it was important enough for Cat to make it a “I refuse to employ pilots who,” thing. Clearly important to him.
O.K. let me be clear on what I meant.

It never ceases to amaze me how many pilots use both hands on the control column to flare and land, especially in multi engine airplanes. And they also use both hands on the control column to rotate and in the initial climb out

So, yes I personally would not hire anyone who operates an airplane that way.

Is that clear enough photofly?
Yes, thanks, very clear. For what it's worth, I don't use two hands on the control column to take off, flare or land.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#43 Post by trey kule » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:57 pm

Well, when I read the OP, I thought this was about wobbling a beaver (giggity).
But there was posts about SOPs, tiller steering, and two crew ops.
A thread drift that we may need pdw to come on here to explain the factors involved.

So. PF. My “dig” as you referenced it, was to the FTU instructors who think that all planes have mixture and prop,controls...and thus spout off truisms like mixture, pitch, power...
Which, even if that does apply does not explain where the throttle hand is. I am genuinely curious as to what you do with the hand you so studiously avoid keeping on the throttles.
No need to detail any body parts that you attend to with it, if that is the case.

Now, my old memory about flying a beaver. Paw on the throttle on takeoff and landing phases.
...except for dealing with flaps selection or pumping, or the pesky ceiling trim wheel.
The balance of the time, I generally recall resting my hand on the pedestal and putting my fingers on the base of the throttle lever. In short, if there was nothing else to do with thAt hand it was always close to the throttle. Maybe I am the only pilot that has dealt with a wind gust, or lost lift coming down over the trees into a lake.

As an aside to the aside of two hands on the control column. A beaver seems to me, to actually get lighter on the controls as you slow it down. Takes didly pressure to pitch. I cannot imagine why anyone would hold the control column with both hands. I suppose one has to do something though, with the “ I dont touch the throttle” hand.

Been some time since I flew a beaver though, so maybe my memory is incorrect.

Lastly. Pelmet is one of the posters that genuinely goes through accident reports to glean nuggets of wisdom, not to jump onto the latest accident bandwagon and bemoan that the final report is not on twitter in 7 mins. I appreciate his posts
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#44 Post by photofly » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:08 pm

trey kule wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:57 pm
I am genuinely curious as to what you do with the hand you so studiously avoid keeping on the throttles.
It depends on who’s sitting in the other seat.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#45 Post by pdw » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:01 pm

trey kule wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:57 pm
Well, when I read the OP, I thought this was about wobbling a beaver (giggity).
But there was posts about SOPs, tiller steering, and two crew ops.
A thread drift that we may need pdw to come on here to explain the factors involved.
This reminds me of the Red and Green show .. remember the quiz towards the end of an episode where the contestant's responses are all over the place and then SURPRISE, the correct answer is stumbled upon purely by brainfart.

Factors ? ..Maybe here it's that innocent word W O B B L E which Pelmet has masterfully inserted right into the middle of the opening question, that can get the credit for the drifting nature of this thread. :D

Must say, it has yielded some distinguished input; even got me thinking about the little wobble primer pumps on all the old farm tractors and what a pain that was pumping and pumping in the cold until running smoothly again after running out of diesel (no fuel gauges).

Ohh .. and what are those finger divets for on both sides of what looks like a two handed yoke ?
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#46 Post by shimmydampner » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:35 pm

pdw wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:01 pm
Ohh .. and what are those finger divets for on both sides of what looks like a two handed yoke ?
In a beaver, it’s so you can hold the controls with your right hand and your dart in the left, with the window down a crack to evacuate the smoke.
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#47 Post by pdw » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:36 pm

Your point is that the PIC is in charge of an aircraft, ... that he or she is in charge of keeping it under control.

The early yokes were no different from an ordinary automotive steering wheel, with the handprints symetrically positioned on either side of centre (as if anyone will actually drive a long down a road with both hands situated left and right like that :roll: ) the way driving instructors insisted ... (or you didn't pass the test).
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#48 Post by hotdog1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:19 pm

It could be so when the yolk is flipped over to the right seat, then that driver can use their right hand on the control column and the left hand for the throttle/pitch/mixture controls
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Re: Can you wobble while landing?

#49 Post by DonutHole » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:21 pm

TeePeeCreeper wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:34 pm
peterdillon wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:01 pm
The main pumps on lots of Beavers are the originals and 60 years old so yes they do quit. Lots now have the STC for the electric pump as a third backup. The wobble pump is kind of low on the centre console which makes it difficult to look out over the engine to land while the other had is down by your foot. Wouldn't dream of not having my hand on the throttle for take off and landing on floats or skis. The most memorable was coming into a small glassy water lake as it was getting dark. Made a turn at low altitude on final approach (bad move) and wasn't aware I was still drifting till I touched the water. The left wing was just about to hit the water at the same time I opened the tap. Ended up being a non event but I can assure you there was no time to reach for anything. In float or ski operations with Beavers and 185's etc unless its rough water or some other special conditions I always short final approach with take off flap and prop in fine pitch and hand on the throttle. There are conditions in bush ops that sometimes require instant action.
Nothing wrong with running your car with the cruise control engaged on ice either I guess. If you feel it start to skid just reach over and shut it off.
Are you sure that -2 that you've flown with an STC for an electric fuel pump also relatained the old wobble pump?

News to me as ALL of the STC'ed modified -2's I've flown without a wobble fuel pump didn't have one as part of the STC!!!

As to promote dialogue as far as this thread is concerned...

I thought all "the old timers" stories about "wobbling my way home" were hearsay... until it happened to me.

I was ready to "dead stick it" but fortunately had an able bodied and very understanding right seat passenger. The event in itself was non eventful.
That fuel pump was also not the original, in fact, I highly doubt you would find an 'original' EDP in a beaver as they are overhauled at engine tbo. Your pump had less than 100 hours tso.
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