Westwind

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C.W.E.
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Re: Westwind

#201 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:02 pm

No access to check and/or deice wing and tailplane
Yeh. that is a perfect reason to wreck an airplane and kill a passenger.

If it turns out contamination was the cause of this accident they were in the following position.

They had no idea there was contamination on the airplane because it was to cold in that freezing rain to walk around it and check it for contamination, and even if they did find it contaminated they had no way to remove the contamination at that airport so they had no choice but to see if it would fly.

Unfortunately that time it crashed.
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Re: Westwind

#202 Post by mbav8r » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:13 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:02 pm
No access to check and/or deice wing and tailplane
Yeh. that is a perfect reason to wreck an airplane and kill a passenger.

If it turns out contamination was the cause of this accident they were in the following position.

They had no idea there was contamination on the airplane because it was to cold in that freezing rain to walk around it and check it for contamination, and even if they did find it contaminated they had no way to remove the contamination at that airport so they had no choice but to see if it would fly.

Unfortunately that time it crashed.
Really, are you kidding me! No choice but to see if it would fly! Is that how you operate airplanes? A wing and a prayer!
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Re: Westwind

#203 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:05 pm

Really, are you kidding me! No choice but to see if it would fly! Is that how you operate airplanes? A wing and a prayer!
No that is not how I operate an airplane it was meant to be sardonic.
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Re: Westwind

#204 Post by Jean-Pierre » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:14 pm

I'm genuinely curious what TC think is going to happen when 705 operator go to various airport with no deicing facility/ability in the winter in Canada. It is just a matter of time and it will happen again because the same thing is going on all over the country.
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Re: Westwind

#205 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:09 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:13 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:02 pm
No access to check and/or deice wing and tailplane
Yeh. that is a perfect reason to wreck an airplane and kill a passenger.

If it turns out contamination was the cause of this accident they were in the following position.

They had no idea there was contamination on the airplane because it was to cold in that freezing rain to walk around it and check it for contamination, and even if they did find it contaminated they had no way to remove the contamination at that airport so they had no choice but to see if it would fly.

Unfortunately that time it crashed.
Really, are you kidding me! No choice but to see if it would fly! Is that how you operate airplanes? A wing and a prayer!
Of course he’s kidding you.
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Re: Westwind

#206 Post by niwre » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:13 pm

Jean-Pierre wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:14 pm
I'm genuinely curious what TC think is going to happen when 705 operator go to various airport with no deicing facility/ability in the winter in Canada. It is just a matter of time and it will happen again because the same thing is going on all over the country.
There are operators that don't deice even with facilities
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Re: Westwind

#207 Post by Illya Kuryakin » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:50 pm

bald seagull wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:37 pm
So I decided to look up the ATR-42-320 numbers, because I've never flown one (used 'basic')......

- MTOW: 36,817 lbs

- Operational Empty Weight = 24,030 lbs (typical in service)
- Max Fuel Load = 9,921 lbs
- 22 pax x 188 lbs (avg male / female even split) = 4,136 lbs

Takeoff weight no cargo or luggage = 38,087 (1,270 lbs over MTOW)

Takeoff distance @ MTOW - ISA - SL = 3,953
Fond du Lac runway length = 3,805

Will be interested to see what their fuel load was......

As mentioned, I've never flown the aircraft type, so if my numbers are off, jump in those who have flown the type.


http://www.atraircraft.com/products_app ... re2014.pdf
Have not flown the ATR, however I've flown types of more or less in the same weight neighborhood. Not advocating, defending, or in any way saying your numbers are accurate....however, generally speaking, an aircraft that has a MTOW of 36,000 pounds or so, will fly at 38,000 pounds with very little issues. As long as everything else is not an issue.
Read that as you will, but that overload, if indeed it existed, would not have IMHO resulted in an accident, without other factors.
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Re: Westwind

#208 Post by Darth Colin » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:48 pm

FlyGy wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:58 pm
atphat wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:59 pm
I've seen the WW ATR around. It's pretty much an all pax operation....at least it used to be, it's why it was so desired. Hence my question.
Have you flown on it? I've been on both Transwest and Westwind many times over the years, often there is freight strapped down on passenger seats because the cargo hold was full. I've been told that this flight was no different.
True, but generally, the freight is heading North, to YSF and ZFD, not the other way around.
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Re: Westwind

#209 Post by Darth Colin » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:27 pm

bald seagull wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:37 pm
So I decided to look up the ATR-42-320 numbers, because I've never flown one (used 'basic')......

- MTOW: 36,817 lbs

- Operational Empty Weight = 24,030 lbs (typical in service)
- Max Fuel Load = 9,921 lbs
- 22 pax x 188 lbs (avg male / female even split) = 4,136 lbs

Takeoff weight no cargo or luggage = 38,087 (1,270 lbs over MTOW)

Takeoff distance @ MTOW - ISA - SL = 3,953
Fond du Lac runway length = 3,805

Will be interested to see what their fuel load was......

As mentioned, I've never flown the aircraft type, so if my numbers are off, jump in those who have flown the type.


http://www.atraircraft.com/products_app ... re2014.pdf
^^^^This.
That max weight of 36,817 lbs would be on a paved 10,000 foot runway with no obstacles off of the departure end, on a standard day. If we assume a more conservative fuel load of maybe 7,000 lb, and a bit of bags (either checked or carry on) and guess the TOW was 24,030lb+7,000lb+4,136lb+(22*30lb)=35,826 lb, then you're under the structural max take off weight, but what about the WAT (weight, altitude temperature) limit for the runway? R28 is only 3,805 feet long, is gravel, and has a 0.43% upslope. I guess my armchair theory is that they may have exceeded a performance limitation for the given conditions.
And as far as management washing their hands of the crew, I'll say this: Leaders lead by example. You can say, or write that you don't condone behaviour that contradicts SOP's and company FOM's but I've flown up there with a management pilot who did the exact opposite while on line. (I have no experience with WestWind as a pilot). Line pilots need to continue to subscribe the the Ass, Licence, Job principle as mentioned above in the thread.
It has been a long time since I posted on this forum, but this one hit too close to home to ignore. I empathize with the crew, and wish them to be flying the friendly skies asap.
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Re: Westwind

#210 Post by A321 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:16 pm

Regardless of whether this accident is attributed to ice, the topic of conversation on what infrastructure is available at northern airports in Canada for de-icing aircraft remains a hot topic. Early on in my flying career, I road right seat on a chartered C402 which ran a shuttle with CBC news crews from YWG-YHD-YWG. This was the weekend in March 1989 when Air Ontario crashed on take-off at YHD killing 21 Pax. Was there a de-ice option in YHD at the time? Yes there was...a new "Old Faithful" de-ice machine owned and operated by the competition (Ontario Express/Canadian Partner). Air Ontario did not have any de-ice equipment at YHD. My experienced charter captain at the time made the politically correct decision to pay the top dollar for the Ontario Express "Old Faithful" service prior to our YHD departures as we had media on board. Think of the optics!

Of course when the owner of the charter company got wind of the de-ice cost we signed for in YHD the Captain got heck as the pesticide sprayer option was available! This despite all of the shuttle service revenue generated that weekend with a charter aircraft that would be normally be sitting idle in the hangar.
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Re: Westwind

#211 Post by pelmet » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:52 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:59 pm
The most public example of what can happen when a pilot knowingly decides to fly with contaminated wings is the Dryden crash in 1989, George was a good friend of mine and I was really sad when I read about his decision to fly because it was not something he would normally do, however he did and the rest is history.
I remember thinking about this accident many years ago and why he would have tried what he did.

I suspect if the aircraft has been 100% operational, de-icing would have been done without hesitation but the APU was inop and they couldn't shut down the engine as required for de-icing.

From what I read, he had loads of Convair time and little jet time(was perhaps there due to seniority). And he happened to be in a swept wing jet with no LED's and unknown to him, it was a jet that is particularly dangerous with contaminated wings, much more so than your typical Boeing jet.

Being a guy from up north, I have no doubt that he did plenty of takeoffs with contamination. Probably saw certain jets do it as well. Assumed that the F28 could do it as well....but it can't.

F-28, F100, CRJ200, Challenger, old short body DC-9's with no slats. Even though their numbers are a fraction of the major airliners, they all have had multiple crashes solely due to contamination(and sometimes not much). The rest of the jet airliners....not really at all.

A fatal assumption.
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Re: Westwind

#212 Post by Guilden » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:54 am

Is there an INC REF switch on the ATR? Was it left on for takeoff? Stick shaker after takeoff? Never flew the ATR but the Q400.. I seen in the simulator multiple times it left on from the previous exercise and the stick shaker going off on a normal takeoff. Thoughts?
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Re: Westwind

#213 Post by Marinth » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:06 pm

Guilden wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:54 am
Is there an INC REF switch on the ATR? Was it left on for takeoff? Stick shaker after takeoff? Never flew the ATR but the Q400.. I seen in the simulator multiple times it left on from the previous exercise and the stick shaker going off on a normal takeoff. Thoughts?
There is an icing angle of attack system that changes the angle of attack the stick shaker goes off at if you have your anti-icing turned on. You do have to turn the system off manually once it's been activated.
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Re: Westwind

#214 Post by FlyGy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:16 am

Darth Colin wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:48 pm
FlyGy wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:58 pm
atphat wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:59 pm
I've seen the WW ATR around. It's pretty much an all pax operation....at least it used to be, it's why it was so desired. Hence my question.
Have you flown on it? I've been on both Transwest and Westwind many times over the years, often there is freight strapped down on passenger seats because the cargo hold was full. I've been told that this flight was no different.
True, but generally, the freight is heading North, to YSF and ZFD, not the other way around.
I would suggest that you refer to the itinerary for that particular flight. Make a point of looking at the stop prior to ZFD as well as the next planned stop.


Edit...

Meh, screw it, I'll save you the time of doing some research. The next stop for this plane was scheduled to be YSF. Since YSF is essentially the hub for all the other Northern airports that the ATR doesn't fly into, it receives freight for other communities as well, such as Uranium City. In addition, the weather all week was abysmal and many flights were grounded. As a result, this aircraft was transporting a backlog of freight that previously was unable to get delivered to YSF.
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Re: Westwind

#215 Post by rigpiggy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:56 pm

Look closer at the dryden report. They wouldn't deice "hot" ie engines running, and the gpu was dmi'd, and fairly sure the spey used air starting. Not saying it was right just that old faithful cost wasn't the bugaboo you make it out to be
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Re: Westwind

#216 Post by Schooner69A » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:21 pm

Rigpiggy is correct. The crew were between a rock and a rock. Couldn't de-ice with the engines running and couldn't get started if they shut down.

More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Ontario_Flight_1363
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Re: Westwind

#217 Post by tsgas » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:19 pm

why couldn't of Air Ontario have shut down 1 engine while 1 side of the A/C was sprayed then repeat the procedure on the other side ?
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Re: Westwind

#218 Post by Zaibatsu » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:47 pm

It wasn’t that at all. The fire detection system for the APU was unserviceable but the APU was fine. A properly written MEL would have allowed the APU to be started on the ground with a fire guard standing outside after being deiced and then using it to start the engines.
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Re: Westwind

#219 Post by trey kule » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:15 am

Is Westwind back flying again?
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Re: Westwind

#220 Post by BE20 Driver » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:49 am

Not yet. Working on their corrective action plan.
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Re: Westwind

#221 Post by 77W » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:29 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon ... -1.4476479

Not surprising really. Flightaware shows North Caribou and Regional 1 picking up the slack.
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Re: Westwind

#222 Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:48 pm

Working on their corrective action plan.
Any idea what they have to correct?
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Re: Westwind

#223 Post by Rezy » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Will this be the end of WWA?
I heard they were laying off all their pilots....
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Re: Westwind

#224 Post by GARRETT » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:44 am

Rezy wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:33 pm
I heard they were laying off all their pilots....
You heard wrong.
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Re: Westwind

#225 Post by Victory » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:44 pm

A class action lawsuit has been filed citing Weight and Balance issues.
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