Westwind

[FlyGy]

I hope this guy wasn't in the hangar, it seems like such a "happy" little plane.
5983902 Photo 718179.jpg

I hope it was. It was a tired bird 23 years ago when I flew it.

I believe a Saab, Twin Otter, King Air, and a couple of helicopters were in the hangar.

Ouch...a SAAB too? Ahh well, Once the insurance pays out I know where there are some ATR-42s that will probably be available at bargain basement prices soon.

[JL]

TSB update on investigation

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-inves ... 7c0146.asp

[schnitzel2k3]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

[7ECA]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

Looks like they've got (at best) a 12' fibreglass and a 6' fibreglass ladder.

[Zaibatsu]

It was after one particularly miserable time I spent on top of a cube van chipping ice off the tail in the middle of of nowhere that I added the airborne icing/freezing temperatures/deice equipment into my decision making. I’ve even flown around under the overcast at freezing for a few minutes to let the ice sublimate off before landing.

How can a company like Westwind not have the resources or the knowhow to stay out those situations? How could the crew have decided it was better to depart and risk everything than to find a solution to deice the plane and hold up until the problem was solved?

[schnitzel2k3]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

Looks like they've got (at best) a 12' fibreglass and a 6' fibreglass ladder.

Even worse, can't touch the tail had the pilots wanted to. I guess it wouldn't take much to assume this has been going on for years. Unfortunately the luck of the operation ran out.

Talk about the danger of norms.

Sorry to all the WWA pilots out there sitting on the sidelines. Good luck in the job search, fortunately no better time to be applying than now.

S.

[bobcaygeon]

Two words:

Company Culture.

Normalization of Deviation

TC in PNR knows this is how operators deice as it is common. Yet they failed to take action. They are part of the problem.

IMHO

[telex]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

[AWOS]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

That looks about adequate for a King Air or a Navajo. Not for an ATR.

[schnitzel2k3]

Somehow I don't think a spray bottle, a 30' ladder and a warming pad are going to entice any flight crew to de-ice and should never have counted as 704 / 705 de-icing equipment.

S

That looks about adequate for a King Air or a Navajo. Not for an ATR.

Agreed.

[tps8903]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

Normalization of Deviance is ramped in the 704 environment. Trying to take a stand against it will only get you tarred and feathered by your employer, and worse by your fellow pilots that drink the kool-aid. This is ultimately a failure of the oversight body. People can only whistleblow and lose employment for so long before they give up.

This falls squarely at TC's feet. I hope TSB says as much in their report.

[RatherBeFlying]

To deice an ATR, I'd think you need at least a scissor lift, drums of fluid, a trained operator, and a plowed apron safe for the scissor lift. Maybe you'd need a scissor lift with outriggers.

I've spent considerable time on a step ladder scraping frost off a 172. Trust me – that's as high as you want to be on a step ladder on a wind blown ramp.

[telex]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

Normalization of Deviance is ramped in the 704 environment. Trying to take a stand against it will only get you tarred and feathered by your employer, and worse by your fellow pilots that drink the kool-aid. This is ultimately a failure of the oversight body. People can only whistleblow and lose employment for so long before they give up.

This falls squarely at TC's feet. I hope TSB says as much in their report.

Not TSBs job.

We’ve also found that it’s important to clarify what the TSB does not do. We don’t assign blame or determine guilt. Neither are we the regulator; we can’t make rules or compel parties to follow them. As such, our findings can’t be used in court, and our witness statements are strictly protected. This also applies to specific recorded information such as on-board voice and video recorders.

The reason for this confidentiality is simple: it helps us do our job better. Witnesses can say what they need, without fear of reprisal or prosecution, so that safety always comes first.

[GARRETT]

I’m the name of trying to save a buck, it has cost a young man his life and permanently changed life for the survivors.
I think it’s high time upper managers at these companies face the music. It’s time the accountable excecutive is actually held accountable! If the accountable excecutive is not held accountable in this case it just confirms that the whole SMS system is bullish!t. To approve of a spray bottle of type-1 and a heating blanket for a 705 aircraft is nothing short of criminal negligence.
As someone mentioned, TC needs to be investigated for negligence as well. It’s their fricken job to check this stuff, they are supposed to be the regulator! Do your job!
This accident didn’t have to happen.

[tps8903]

Normalization of Deviance

Start here, four parts if you are interested in the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljzj9Msli5o

Normalization of Deviance is ramped in the 704 environment. Trying to take a stand against it will only get you tarred and feathered by your employer, and worse by your fellow pilots that drink the kool-aid. This is ultimately a failure of the oversight body. People can only whistleblow and lose employment for so long before they give up.

This falls squarely at TC's feet. I hope TSB says as much in their report.

Not TSBs job.

We’ve also found that it’s important to clarify what the TSB does not do. We don’t assign blame or determine guilt. Neither are we the regulator; we can’t make rules or compel parties to follow them. As such, our findings can’t be used in court, and our witness statements are strictly protected. This also applies to specific recorded information such as on-board voice and video recorders.

The reason for this confidentiality is simple: it helps us do our job better. Witnesses can say what they need, without fear of reprisal or prosecution, so that safety always comes first.

Would TSB not be in their scope to list a contributing factor of lack of regulation enforcement? If that were indeed deemed to be a contributing cause?

And therefore making recommendations to TC to better enforce standards?

"The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) is responsible for advancing transportation safety. One of the ways it does this is by making recommendations to federal departments and other organizations to eliminate or reduce safety deficiencies".

[JL]

Recent TSB recommendation regarding TC oversight ...

Therefore, to ensure that companies use their safety management system (SMS) effectively, and to ensure that companies continue operating in compliance with regulations, the Board recommended that

The Department of Transport enhance its oversight policies, procedures and training to ensure the frequency and focus of surveillance, as well as post-surveillance oversight activities, including enforcement, are commensurate with the capability of the operator to effectively manage risk.
TSB Recommendation A16-14

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/recommandation ... -a1614.asp

[FlyGy]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon ... -1.4634770

I find this paragraph interesting

"We also know the de-icing issue ... is a very significant issue," lawyer Tony Merchant told CBC News on Wednesday. "The failure regarding de-icing is a complicated matter where de-icing was not performed and the causes of that not being performed reaches to more than one defendant."

I wonder if TC might have been named as a defendant as well. The article mentions others, but not all.

[trey kule]

Not that long ago I posted on a thread that TC had to start clamping down on this buckshee business of garden sprayers.

I was crapped on from great heights, and it was pointed out to me that TC is OK with this.

I hope some of the TC folks read this thread.
Deicing has to be done properly, and heating pads and garden sprayers dont do that. The training given most 703 pilots about de ice anti ice consists of watching a video or two and then filling out a little quiz.....thens its iff to using cold chemicals, weak pressure to apply, and....even to some rather odd choices of fluids...

Time TC stepped up to the plate and got serious about companies’ training and equipment.

Kudos to the companies that do it correctly.

[C.W.E.]

It sure would be refreshing to see T.C. included in the law suit as part of the problem so the general public can get a better look at how they regulate...or don't regulate.

[FlyGy]

I wouldn't be surprised if one of Tony's minions has been following this thread. Maybe someone should send a link to him. That ambulance chaser wouldn't hesitate to include TC in the list if it would make him a buck.