Westwind

[pelmet]

Wow, TSB issues a timely, informative update on the investigation, and all the bashers are silent.

What a surprise.

Maybe they are quietly satisfied that voicing concerns in the past may have resulted in more timely information release.

I might be mistaken, but I somehow doubt TSB management spends much time worrying about the AvCanada reaction to the timing of its press releases.

You may be mistaken...or not. But there is a poster here called TSB Tasker that has asked members of this forum several times for accident info(directly linked to an investigation) as well as provided advertisements for investigators.

Maybe just to make myself feel better, I will assume that the occasional investigator does read through this forum and other similar ones and after sorting out extraneous info(of which there is a lot), on occasion finds something useful.

Whatever the reason, at least we now know fairly quickly that the engines on this ATR were operating properly.

[pdw]

"there's no such thing as a little ice"?

I don't know who "Swordfish" is quoting there at bottom of page one of this thread, but that I believe also came from an accident in New York area (i believe also referenced for a Colorado challenger accident) a while back .. if not mistaken had resulted in a collision with a NY hangar ... having taxxied downwind to the active where picking up a fair bit of semi-sticky snow settling on the wing ..as is possible here too ... if snowing similar while in downwind taxi for 28 in 7G17ktsNW & SN/Ft Chippewan. In that case makes sense to check everything that affects an obvious factor .. like the W&B numbers being necessary to establish whereabouts of stallspeed.

And seeing this accident site is also slightly downhill off the departure end, part of this sequence can be loss of lift lee of trees past threshold, as METERS West are showing warm overruning component is very strong for-a-short-time/at-the-time, .. which raises MECH ( here at least 10kts less RW between gusts) .. esp when immediately over taller trees past deforested/windwhipped airport-area.

(If it went down from black hole effect, the TSB would have been able to find out soon after.)

[gwengler]

Now that we know that the engines produced power at impact. Here's my take: CFIT - black hole effect.

[trey kule]

Considering the that Westwind flight crews are highly paid, very experienced, and well trained, I do not think that CFIT is even a possability.

Its not like they are hiring just anyone, or have a rather haphazard training program Not when you are paying your crews top dollar and treat them well.

Like all Canadian operators, Safety is job one.

It has to be Alien intervention

[golden hawk]

http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local-ne ... iner-crash

[pdw]

Considering the that Westwind flight crews are highly paid, very experienced, and well trained, I do not think that CFIT is even a possability.

Its not like they are hiring just anyone, or have a rather haphazard training program Not when you are paying your crews top dollar and treat them well.

Like all Canadian operators, Safety is job one.

It has to be Alien intervention

Whatever the foreign intervention was, is the accident sequence itself. Each is different; none are identical. The mandate of an investigation is to take individual items/factors and piece together. I agree that saying CFIT, a well intended investigative term which seemed to have been born out of a frustration of so many avoidable accidents years ago, may not have any preventative value here at all.

[pelmet]

Considering the that Westwind flight crews are highly paid, very experienced, and well trained, I do not think that CFIT is even a possability.

Its not like they are hiring just anyone, or have a rather haphazard training program Not when you are paying your crews top dollar and treat them well.

Never make an assumption, positive or negative in an investigation. At least not in the early stages. Bias/emotion affects logical process.

[C.W.E.]

Fifteen-year-old Lyman Fern was aboard the plane when it went down. He told the Saskatoon StarPhoenix that everything seemed normal until after takeoff, when the short-haul airliner started rocking back and forth.

Was there any chance the airplane had been parked for a while and there was freezing rain or frost that collected on the top of the wings and other parts?

[RatherBeFlying]

One lovely winter morning I discovered the C-172 I had booked for the day was covered in frost. After about an hour of scraping off the frost between the rivet lines, I was ready to fly.

Leaving ground effect the airplane took me on low level tour of the ravine at the end of the runway until it had another 20 kt.

Frost may have accumulated during the turnaround enough that they couldn't get out of ground effect.

So how do you get up there to check the wings and tail?

This is of course just one possibility.

[trey kule]

[
Never make an assumption, positive or negative in an investigation. At least not in the early stages. Bias/emotion affects logical process.

No worries Pelmet, I have no interest in all the speculation going on, except wonderment that pilots claim all this speculation is a learning process, as it seems they are unable to learn things any other way. ( I am not including you in this assessment)

And of course, there is nothing to be learned from anything in the past. We need answers now! That darn old TSB needs to have 20 extra people on standby to satisfy the immediate needs of AvCanaders.

[Lotro]

Whoa... I don't see Transport doing this often:

OTTAWA -- Transport Canada says it has grounded the airline that operated the plane that crashed in northern Saskatchewan earlier this month.

https://www.cp24.com/news/feds-ground-n ... -1.3733766

~Lotro

[ipilot54]

I guess that National Audit thing I mention kicked in....

I hope they get things worked out but there must have been something not quite right...

[goldeneagle]

The investigators have ruled out engine failure, and this has been made public. A few days ago I was shocked to read a newspaper article where TSB presented the cause for a helicopter accident that was just a few weeks ago.

I know there are lots here that are used to TSB reports and information taking years to show up, but we've had a change in government, and now we see information coming out in a timely fashion. As much as the haters probably dont want to admit it, this is an obvious 'cause and effect' in progress. New government, timely information from TSB. That can ONLY be due to a very serious change in policy that came from on high.

[jakester]

Transport pulling the OC is different from the norm..........there's a lower mainland s***show company that parallels this and they are still running despite numerous fines and warnings so maybe a change in TC attitude is coming

[Illya Kuryakin]

Considering the that Westwind flight crews are highly paid, very experienced, and well trained, I do not think that CFIT is even a possability.

Its not like they are hiring just anyone, or have a rather haphazard training program Not when you are paying your crews top dollar and treat them well.

Never make an assumption, positive or negative in an investigation. At least not in the early stages. Bias/emotion affects logical process.

Other than he well paid comment, I’m not on board with CFIT either. This is far from their first rodeo. These guys would be maintaining a positive rate.....
Illya

[77W]

Who is picking up the slack for Westwind during this busy part of the year? I see nothing but a couple transwest 1900's flying around. Surely they can't fill the void? I'm in no way stirring the pot, but those miners and scheduled passengers can't be happy.

Secondly, what sort of "deficiencies" could lead to the grounding of the airline? Would being dispatched into an area where freezing precipitation is occurring count??

[Illya Kuryakin]

Considering the that Westwind flight crews are highly paid, very experienced, and well trained, I do not think that CFIT is even a possability.

Its not like they are hiring just anyone, or have a rather haphazard training program Not when you are paying your crews top dollar and treat them well.

Like all Canadian operators, Safety is job one.

It has to be Alien intervention

Whatever the foreign intervention was, is the accident sequence itself. Each is different; none are identical. The mandate of an investigation is to take individual items/factors and piece together. I agree that saying CFIT, a well intended investigative term which seemed to have been born out of a frustration of so many avoidable accidents years ago, may not have any preventative value here at all.

Where does this verbal meandering come from?? “a well intended investigative term.....”. Do you even know what “black hole effect” is? Do you actually even fly? The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.....
Illya

[Stan Darsh]

Whenever I read pdw's posts I feel like I'm having a stroke.

[Cliff Jumper]

New government, timely information from TSB. That can ONLY be due to a very serious change in policy that came from on high.

I don't think the TSB is influenced by the shifting of politicians... or at least it shouldn't be.

Maybe the push is from within?

[Wyatt Earp]

9 Unread post Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:53 am

Transport pulling the OC is different from the norm..........there's a lower mainland s***show company that parallels this and they are still running despite numerous fines and warnings so maybe a change in TC attitude is coming

This is not the lower mainland. The lower mainland is under Pacific Region which seems to have a little more common sense than Winnipeg office. The inspectors in Winnipeg run their audits to their own ideas and don’t stick to the CARs. They expect operators to meet their own personal expectations. Where these operators would pass audits in all other regions they won’t pass in Winnipeg. It is a culture in that office that has been passed on to new inspectors for years.