Westwind

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Cat Driver
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Re: Westwind

#101 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:03 pm

So far there does not seem to be any idea of why it ended up there.
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Re: Westwind

#102 Post by North Shore » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:23 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:21 pm

Now to this comment by you:
That's pure bullshit, Cat, and you know it.
You are basically calling me a liar and I am not prepared to accept such a comment from anyone.
Simmer down, and stop putting words into my mouth. Nowhere did I say that you're a liar - we're simply having a difference of opinion about the accuracy of TSB investigations. I think that your contention that the "chances are we will be no closer to knowing the true cause than the day it happened" is BS. As I'm understanding your words, you are saying that based on your experience with one case - 40 years ago- (and a few others, perhaps?) out of literally thousands of accident investigations, the chances are - so in a significant number of cases - the TSB will get it wrong. I simply don't think that's the case..
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Re: Westwind

#103 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:18 pm

170 to xray wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:55 am
Many years ago I had lunch with a retired accident investigator. I asked how he liked working for the the NTSB. His respones was, "I didn't work for the NTSB, I worked for IACO."

He explained to me that when an accident happens 'teams' of investigators are sent to investigate the accident. Engine manufacturers, tire manufacturers, air plane manufacturers, avionics manufacturer..you get the point...they all send investigators to the accident. He said that they were all there to investigate their components, as experts to help the NTSB.

He also said that they were there to show that it wasn't their component that contributed to the accident, unofficially of course.

He was there to represent the pilots. He felt that the experts from industry were too eager to blame the two dead pilots and call it pilot error.

Is any of it true? I have know idea, but that's how it was told to me.
Investigators....or Lobbyists in everything but title?

Awwww....I should behave and believe everyone has the best of altruist intentions.....always safety above (Cough) the mighty dollar......... :shock:
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Re: Westwind

#104 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm

Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
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Re: Westwind

#105 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:01 pm

Maybe it'll be classified as a hard landing and not a crash.
What is the difference between a hard landing and a crash?
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Re: Westwind

#106 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pm

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm
Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
Ice in the fuel?
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Re: Westwind

#107 Post by EPR » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:52 pm

Northshore, I took the NTSB reports as gospel up until I read the Air Canada "hard landing" report.
I can not believe how "white washed" that report is, when compared to a private independent report that was published.
That topic is available to read on this site, I just can't recall exactly where, but boy, what an eye opener!
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Last edited by EPR on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Westwind

#108 Post by Cliff Jumper » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:10 pm

EPR wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:52 pm
NTSB report .... Air Canada report. ....private independent that report
I must have missed that... can you explain?
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Re: Westwind

#109 Post by EPR » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:27 pm

Here is a link to the AC624 A320 "hard landing" accident critique of the TSB report that blew me away!
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
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Re: Westwind

#110 Post by '97 Tercel » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:38 pm

I guess If you crash onto a runway it's a hard landing.

And if you do a hard landing anywhere else it's a crash.
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Re: Westwind

#111 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:01 am

EPR wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:27 pm
Here is a link to the AC624 A320 "hard landing" accident critique of the TSB report that blew me away!
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
I agree that that this report put a nasty dent in the TSB's credibility.........
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Re: Westwind

#112 Post by CpnCrunch » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:15 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:01 am
EPR wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:27 pm
Here is a link to the AC624 A320 "hard landing" accident critique of the TSB report that blew me away!
http://www.picma.info/sites/default/fil ... %201_4.pdf
I agree that that this report put a nasty dent in the TSB's credibility.........
I had a look at that critique, and a lot of the comments don't seem to make much sense (like the cold correction, which is above the altimeter setting source, not above sea level). Anyway, it's thread drift, so I'd suggest starting a new thread to discuss it.
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Re: Westwind

#113 Post by pdw » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:18 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm
Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
Ice in the fuel?
Not so likely if all fuel around there was WAY below zero all week; unless moisture along from previous/warmer departure (where nearby Airpts South or West are 5C at-the-time) already in the tanks. That's (the only way IMO) possible for making freezing H20 at Fond-du-lac (-9C in wx-hist).. or if topping with some minus 10-15C fuel (holds chill from previous nights -20/-30).

Seeing impact angle must have been fairly shallow (800ft debris field/TSB) it still could be that when weedwacking along, starting with smaller branches of the tallest treetops, that would eventually stop props anyway ... wouldn't it ? At which point in this accident sequence would the pilot have shut off the fuel (as per forced approach lesson / flying 101) when pending touchdown among trees became clear ?
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Re: Westwind

#114 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm
Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
Ice in the fuel?
Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.

S.
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Re: Westwind

#115 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:42 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pm
PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm
Did they fuel up before leaving? Have to imagine that losing both engines after takeoff could have been from a fuel contamination issue.
Ice in the fuel?
Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.

S.
Uh, no... What about points North or ZFD? Havent been to either in awhile mind you...
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Re: Westwind

#116 Post by spruceair » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:47 pm

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:42 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pm


Ice in the fuel?
Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.

S.
Uh, no... What about points North or ZFD? Havent been to either in awhile mind you...

Fuel in points, stony and the mines but not fon du lac (zfd)
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Re: Westwind

#117 Post by PostmasterGeneral » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:56 pm

All the Cameco mines had the same fuel provider from what I remember, I think even Points shared with Collins Gay. Oops I meant bay..

Is it unreasonable to think that they took on fuel and when the poured the coals to 'er she shit the bed just after rotation? Everyone is focused on icing but what about the gas, man?
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Re: Westwind

#118 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:27 am

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:42 pm
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:07 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:02 pm


Ice in the fuel?
Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.

S.
Uh, no... What about points North or ZFD? Havent been to either in awhile mind you...
Apologies, Points has fuel, but it's not as far north as Stony. La Ronge - besides the mines - is the next furtherst north, then comes Buffalo Narrows.

ZFD = Fond Du Lac - no fuel last I was there - unless you meant a different airport.

I would be surprised if it was a fuel icing / contamination issue. All I hope is that it was not a crew or mx related malfunction.

Tough for it not to be because those ATRs are pretty bullet proof.

Cheers.

S.
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Re: Westwind

#119 Post by FlyGy » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:31 am

Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.

According to their schedule, the previous stop for WEW280 was LaRonge. Stony Rapids was their next stop.
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Re: Westwind

#120 Post by Diadem » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:20 pm

Both engines were turning at the time of the crash:
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/sask ... -1.4458032
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Re: Westwind

#121 Post by Donald » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:49 pm

Wow, TSB issues a timely, informative update on the investigation, and all the bashers are silent.

What a surprise.
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Re: Westwind

#122 Post by plhought » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:07 pm

I think (hoping) TSB has learned from some pretty high-profile accidents abroad and next door - and their dissemination of some pretty prompt information.

Ex: De-rail down in Washington State - within 10-12 hours we already know the facts (80 mph in 30 mph zone etc etc), focus can move to 'why'.

TSB also did some hiring last year which I hoped help.
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Re: Westwind

#123 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:47 pm

FlyGy wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:31 am
Only fuel that far north is Stony. So they would've had one full 20 minute cycle.

According to their schedule, the previous stop for WEW280 was LaRonge. Stony Rapids was their next stop.
Even less likely it was fuel contamination - 35-40 minute cycle prior to departure, plus engines spinning at the time of the incident.

Scratching my head. TSB is weighing luggage to verify possible over weight conditions vs performance.

This isn't looking good - not that it ever was.

S.
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Re: Westwind

#124 Post by pelmet » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:00 pm

Donald wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:49 pm
Wow, TSB issues a timely, informative update on the investigation, and all the bashers are silent.

What a surprise.
Maybe they are quietly satisfied that voicing concerns in the past may have resulted in more timely information release.
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Re: Westwind

#125 Post by YYZSaabGuy » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:18 am

pelmet wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:00 pm
Donald wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:49 pm
Wow, TSB issues a timely, informative update on the investigation, and all the bashers are silent.

What a surprise.
Maybe they are quietly satisfied that voicing concerns in the past may have resulted in more timely information release.
I might be mistaken, but I somehow doubt TSB management spends much time worrying about the AvCanada reaction to the timing of its press releases.
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