Westwind

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
Message
Author
gwagen
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:30 am

Re: Westwind

#151 Post by gwagen » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:28 am

Blueontop wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:55 am
Unfortunately this is now a fatal accident.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/sask ... -1.4465220
Yes, very sad. Those responsible should be hung from the highest yardarm.

Whether the management or pilots or both, barring a mechanical failure, if this was caused by poor judgement and was otherwise preventable.

It’s murder and attempted murder, they deserve the full extent of the law.

When you are in the cockpit whether right or left seat and you have passengers, they have entrusted their lives to you and you are responsible for them.

Taking off in icing with ice on the aircraft is inexcusable regardless of outcome of the takeoff.
---------- ADS -----------
  

trey kule
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4378
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 7:09 pm

Re: Westwind

#152 Post by trey kule » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:52 pm

This is great learning experience!
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by trey kule on Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Everyone is a genius in hindsight

ba31pilot
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: Westwind

#153 Post by ba31pilot » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:05 pm

gwagen,

Before you go ahead and anoint yourself judge, jury and executioner, maybe we should let the TSB do their investigation. While this was a terrible accident and now a very sad tragedy with the addition of a fatality, let the outcome be determined by professionals. The couch potato peanut gallery who choose to cast their premature guilty verdict are not assisting in any way.

This may turn out to be an error on someone's part or just a very unfortunate mechanical failure during a critical phase of flight. For those who are still dealing with this, please show some restraint and respect.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 524
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Westwind

#154 Post by C.W.E. » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:11 pm

This may turn out to be an error on someone's part or just a very unfortunate mechanical failure during a critical phase of flight.
Now that there has been a fatality the TSB may take this a bit more seriously and try and find out if it was mechanical error and if it was they may release their findings soon?

It is now in the more serious accident category.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Westwind

#155 Post by rookiepilot » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:45 pm

ba31pilot wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:05 pm
gwagen,

we should let the TSB do their investigation.
Code for, shut up and whatever happens don't ever blame crew, cause they were probably pressured by evil management and can't make an independent decision. Am I close?

Maybe some of us actually get upset when people die, and that might be slightly more important than those "dealing with it".

WHATEVER -- the cause of this one -- STOP taking off into shitty weather cause one doesn't have the stones to stand up and say "No".

Fair?

I need sensitivity training.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 524
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Westwind

#156 Post by C.W.E. » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:13 pm

Code for, shut up and whatever happens don't ever blame crew, cause they were probably pressured by evil management and can't make an independent decision. Am I close?
Reading all his posts since he started on Avcanada he seems to know a lot about Westwind.

Maybe he can assure us that it had to be mechanical failure because they would never depart unless everything was legal.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Donald
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2054
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: Westwind

#157 Post by Donald » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:46 pm

From a friend of a friend, they were overweight and didn't use the whole runway.

Yet to be determined if ground/air icing was a contributing factor.

Explains the "lack of company oversight". Also makes it obvious the pilots will be hung out to dry and the company won't be standing behind them.

Good luck.
---------- ADS -----------
  

atphat
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: Westwind

#158 Post by atphat » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:05 pm

For the ATR drivers out there. Could you even be overweight with 22 pax?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Donald
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2054
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: Westwind

#159 Post by Donald » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:12 pm

atphat wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:05 pm
For the ATR drivers out there. Could you even be overweight with 22 pax?
Without being an ATR driver, you could be overweight in an empty airplane, if you don't use the whole runway.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PointyEngine
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 231
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:29 am
Location: North of the Warmth

Re: Westwind

#160 Post by PointyEngine » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:37 pm

atphat wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:05 pm
For the ATR drivers out there. Could you even be overweight with 22 pax?

With freight and fuel, sure.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 367
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: Westwind

#161 Post by HansDietrich » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:59 pm

Sad news indeed.

While a lot of us are trying to be professional and not point fingers, especially so early (into the investigation), those of us with some experience and knowledge of how "things are done in the North" can't help but think that a lot of corners are cut on a daily basis. We've seen it, we've done it and most of us were lucky enough to never have a repercussion.

If in fact the crew did something deliberately wrong, I would say the company will "feed them to the dogs" and try to wash their hands of any responsibility. Personally, I think that the top managers at WestWind should all be criminally charged, if this does indeed prove some company wide negligence. I want to see these top individuals behind bars, so they set an example to the rest of them (bosses) that it's NOT okay bully, push or punish crews that say NO.

It's easy to sit behind the keyboard and say "They should have said no". "They should have blah blah blah blah blah..." I remember being in front of my chief pilot a few times trying to explain why I "refused" to go somewhere and getting shit for it. I also remember being a chicken and saying yes to something I didn't want to do.

You learn to say NO with experience. You learn to say NO by having that experience and knowing that another job awaits. You really learn to say NO when you have little ones at home waiting for you and then you realize that nothing is more important than your life.

Someone's signature here caught my eye. I loved it. It said "Ass. License. Job... in that order"
---------- ADS -----------
  
Das ist mir wurst...

northernpilot2
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:20 am

Re: Westwind

#162 Post by northernpilot2 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:38 am

Hi, this is my first post here on this website. I have been coming here for the last 5 years or so and I decided to finally sign up. I am a captain at one of the 703 operators up north, cant mention name sorry.

I wanted to respond to the statement about " management putting the pressure on the pilots ". Well at least where I work, this is not true. Every time that I delay or cancel a flight Im never questioned by management. As long as I have a valid reason ( weather, mechanical, etc.) we are on the same page. Ive been at my company for over 2 years now and I never felt any pressure to "go get it done". No means No and it should just be that way. If management does pressure you to do something dangerous, then it's probably best to quit and go work at another operator. Im sure everyone out there knows who has a good or bad rep for safety.

Thats all I would like to say for now. Please fly safe and arrive alive. :)
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Westwind

#163 Post by rookiepilot » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:26 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:59 pm
Sad news indeed.

While a lot of us are trying to be professional and not point fingers, especially so early (into the investigation), those of us with some experience and knowledge of how "things are done in the North" can't help but think that a lot of corners are cut on a daily basis. We've seen it, we've done it and most of us were lucky enough to never have a repercussion.

If in fact the crew did something deliberately wrong, I would say the company will "feed them to the dogs" and try to wash their hands of any responsibility. Personally, I think that the top managers at WestWind should all be criminally charged, if this does indeed prove some company wide negligence. I want to see these top individuals behind bars, so they set an example to the rest of them (bosses) that it's NOT okay bully, push or punish crews that say NO.

It's easy to sit behind the keyboard and say "They should have said no". "They should have blah blah blah blah blah..." I remember being in front of my chief pilot a few times trying to explain why I "refused" to go somewhere and getting shit for it. I also remember being a chicken and saying yes to something I didn't want to do.

You learn to say NO with experience. You learn to say NO by having that experience and knowing that another job awaits. You really learn to say NO when you have little ones at home waiting for you and then you realize that nothing is more important than your life.

Someone's signature here caught my eye. I loved it. It said "Ass. License. Job... in that order"
So it's always managements fault if someone doesn't use all of the runway? (see above) Just curious how it all works.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Gilles Hudicourt
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1991
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:51 am
Location: YUL

Re: Westwind

#164 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:36 am

Performance :
The weather:
The Regulations:
The company procedures :
The Collective Agreements :
Common sense :
Experience :
Passenger expectations :
Passenger Safety :
Passenger comfort :
Financial considerations:
Company Image:
Crew fatigue:
Crew Health:
Peer pressure :
Company culture :
Personal Considerations:

Are all things that a crew have to consider and balance when making a decision. They often conflict. Sometimes two opposite decisions both have consequences.

This is why there is an investigation. The TSB will look into all of that, and hopefully they will come up with a plausible explanation, not only for the crash, but also for any decision process that would have had been a contributing factor to the crash.....
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
HansDietrich
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 367
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:33 am

Re: Westwind

#165 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:08 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:26 am
So it's always managements fault if someone doesn't use all of the runway? (see above) Just curious how it all works.
How exactly did you come up to that conclusion from what I have written? Let me make it more clear to you in case you didn't understand. My English is a little off sometimes.

Cutting corners in Northern Canada is the norm. It's fact, we've seen it we've done it. Everyone! Worst of all, it's expected by managers that their crews and workers cut corners to "Get'er done". It's all in the interest of making a buck.

Traditionally, when an accident occurs, it's only the fight crew that get the wrath of it, while management gets to wash their dirty little hands. The accountable executives, Chief Pilots and Ops Managers need to be there with them, behind the "proverbial firing squad".
---------- ADS -----------
  
Das ist mir wurst...

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 524
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Westwind

#166 Post by C.W.E. » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:23 am

atphat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:05 pm


For the ATR drivers out there. Could you even be overweight with 22 pax?
***********************************************************************************
Someone else answered.
With freight and fuel, sure.

If you read these forums and want to confirm what any given poster really knows about flying the answers will eventually be found by their responses to other posts.

The above is the perfect example, if you make a judgement of the posters knowledge based on their user name atphat would appear to be a pilot.

If you make a judgement based on their posts then reading the above atphat is likely not a pilot.

Based on that question If he/she is a working pilot then in my personal opinion the industry truly has slipped into desperation for someone to operate their airplanes.
---------- ADS -----------
  

atphat
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: Westwind

#167 Post by atphat » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:25 am

Rules are pretty black and white. Step outside the box and something happens you will hang. That’s the system we work in.

On a side note many are saying how they didn’t use the whole runway. I’m assuming any pilot operating a 705 aircraft does the appropriate WAT data before every departure. If the numbers work it becomes a moot point, whether or not you have personal opinions on intersection take offs.
---------- ADS -----------
  

atphat
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm

Re: Westwind

#168 Post by atphat » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:27 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:23 am
atphat wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:05 pm


For the ATR drivers out there. Could you even be overweight with 22 pax?
***********************************************************************************
Someone else answered.
With freight and fuel, sure.

If you read these forums and want to confirm what any given poster really knows about flying the answers will eventually be found by their responses to other posts.

The above is the perfect example, if you make a judgement of the posters knowledge based on their user name atphat would appear to be a pilot.

If you make a judgement based on their posts then reading the above atphat is likely not a pilot.

Based on that question If he/she is a working pilot then in my personal opinion the industry truly has slipped into desperation for someone to operate their airplanes.
Lol. Ok. WW never carried freight as far as I know. My airplane with less than half the pax and full of fuel is no where near overweight. That’s kind of how big planes work.
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 524
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Westwind

#169 Post by C.W.E. » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:48 am

My airplane with less than half the pax and full of fuel is no where near overweight. That’s kind of how big planes work.
Big airplanes do not carry freight as well as passengers?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Westwind

#170 Post by rookiepilot » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:57 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:08 am

Traditionally, when an accident occurs, it's only the fight crew that get the wrath of it, while management gets to wash their dirty little hands. The accountable executives, Chief Pilots and Ops Managers need to be there with them, behind the "proverbial firing squad".
Gotcha.

Lots of stories, yes, about northern stuff. Not disputing that.

However -----

So -- just so I understand, it is expected to show respect here, and never speculate about a flight crews actions in an accident until a report comes out.

Guess that doesn't apply to management. Fair game, I guess. Easier for every accident, for people to say "they made me do it". Kinda like life, actually.

Is there any Specific evidence management actions contributed to this Specific accident?
---------- ADS -----------
  

av8ts
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 651
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Westwind

#171 Post by av8ts » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:17 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:48 am
My airplane with less than half the pax and full of fuel is no where near overweight. That’s kind of how big planes work.
Big airplanes do not carry freight as well as passengers?
I was told when traveling out of San Jose CR to YYZ on passes that even though the flight may be showing empty seats you may still not get on. Apparently sometimes they are weight restricted due to carrying quit a bit of cargo
---------- ADS -----------
  

av8ts
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 651
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:31 am

Re: Westwind

#172 Post by av8ts » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:18 am

av8ts wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:17 am
C.W.E. wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:48 am
My airplane with less than half the pax and full of fuel is no where near overweight. That’s kind of how big planes work.
Big airplanes do not carry freight as well as passengers?
I was told when traveling out of San Jose CR to YYZ on passes that even though the flight may be showing empty seats you may still not get on. Apparently sometimes they are weight restricted due to carrying quite a bit of cargo
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Westwind

#173 Post by daedalusx » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:47 am

Pineapples out of Hawaii and Takeoff performance/DA limits out of most places in South America at high elevation. The flights can show 50+ open seats and be at max gross, even on a 763.
---------- ADS -----------
  
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 524
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Westwind

#174 Post by C.W.E. » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:46 am

One thing for sure about the pilot group it is never boring reading all the different thoughts or lack thereof they post on these forums.

There seems to be real blurring of what a lot of things mean to individual posters here, like what ATP means or how little ATP means as far as flying goes.

And then there is the question of what is a big airplane is and on and on it goes.

These forums help to fill in hours that otherwise would be boring.

If I read these posts long enough will I become a real pilot?
---------- ADS -----------
  

northernpilot2
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:20 am

Re: Westwind

#175 Post by northernpilot2 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:52 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:36 am
I agree and disagree on what should we as a flight crew should bring with us to the flight deck.

Performance : Agree
The weather: Agree
The Regulations: Agree
The company procedures : Agree
The Collective Agreements : Agree and Disagree - It all depends
Common sense : Agree
Experience : Agree
Passenger expectations : Most of the time, but not always possible
Passenger Safety : Absolutely
Passenger comfort : Not a priority over safety but a consideration for sure
Financial considerations: Disagree. Flight crew should not have to think about it when it comes to safety. Maybe a last priority among other things if there is time.
Company Image: Agree
Crew fatigue: Agree and a very important one
Crew Health: Agree
Peer pressure : Ignore it and you will be safe. Don't let others get you in trouble. Just because they can do it doesn't mean you have to.
Company culture : Agree.
Personal Considerations: Besides safety/emergency considerations, keep personal considerations outside the flight deck. I could care less if you have to get home fast because you hate your job.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”