Westwind

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JL
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Re: Westwind

#276 Post by JL » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:24 am

Recent TSB recommendation regarding TC oversight ...

Therefore, to ensure that companies use their safety management system (SMS) effectively, and to ensure that companies continue operating in compliance with regulations, the Board recommended that

The Department of Transport enhance its oversight policies, procedures and training to ensure the frequency and focus of surveillance, as well as post-surveillance oversight activities, including enforcement, are commensurate with the capability of the operator to effectively manage risk.
TSB Recommendation A16-14

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/recommandation ... -a1614.asp
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FlyGy
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Re: Westwind

#277 Post by FlyGy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:02 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon ... -1.4634770

I find this paragraph interesting

"We also know the de-icing issue ... is a very significant issue," lawyer Tony Merchant told CBC News on Wednesday. "The failure regarding de-icing is a complicated matter where de-icing was not performed and the causes of that not being performed reaches to more than one defendant."

I wonder if TC might have been named as a defendant as well. The article mentions others, but not all.
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Re: Westwind

#278 Post by trey kule » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:59 pm

Not that long ago I posted on a thread that TC had to start clamping down on this buckshee business of garden sprayers.

I was crapped on from great heights, and it was pointed out to me that TC is OK with this.

I hope some of the TC folks read this thread.
Deicing has to be done properly, and heating pads and garden sprayers dont do that. The training given most 703 pilots about de ice anti ice consists of watching a video or two and then filling out a little quiz.....thens its iff to using cold chemicals, weak pressure to apply, and....even to some rather odd choices of fluids...

Time TC stepped up to the plate and got serious about companies’ training and equipment.

Kudos to the companies that do it correctly.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Westwind

#279 Post by C.W.E. » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:24 pm

It sure would be refreshing to see T.C. included in the law suit as part of the problem so the general public can get a better look at how they regulate...or don't regulate.
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Re: Westwind

#280 Post by FlyGy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:02 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if one of Tony's minions has been following this thread. Maybe someone should send a link to him. That ambulance chaser wouldn't hesitate to include TC in the list if it would make him a buck.
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Re: Westwind

#281 Post by trey kule » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:29 pm

The sad part of including TC in an action is the only consequence is to us as taxpayers.
The idiots in TC who are only interested in paper trails and records will continue on.

TC is no longer the envy of the world that they keep trying tontell us they are.
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Re: Westwind

#282 Post by smashmonkey » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:14 am

Since Transport was already brought up I'll leave them out but I am curious if the union ever mentioned the lack of deicing available for ATRs. Or Occupational health and safety. Or the SMS officer.

Did anyone speak up? There is a whole bunch of people that should be held at least partially accountable. I hope Tony calls individuals out and their testimony is public.
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Re: Westwind

#283 Post by trey kule » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:36 am

Those are excellent points.

One can only assume that the SmS, union reps, were informed by the flight crews and documented and acted on it, right?
Otherwise the whole SMS safety thing would just be a sham for OC compliance.

Or, I suppose, a whole bunch of pilots who belly ached, but did not make the effort to actually file a report. That would make an interesting Human Factor study wouldn’t it.

I am jaded. I have read on these threads so many times pilots defending these practices, because, you know, they have worked before...
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Re: Westwind

#284 Post by Zaibatsu » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:00 am

There’s already a regulation that covers everything.

It reads “Pilots shall not attempt a takeoff with contamination adhering to the critical surfaces of the aircraft.” It brilliantly encompasses any method you might use to deice the aircraft, and it doesn’t say that the most effective methods are a 100% foolproof way of ensuring the aircraft is clean.

It’s often those who protest against over regulation that want regulations banning things or forcing people to use things that won’t in all circumstances be helpful and may be a huge hinderance.

The reality is, you can’t have a deice truck with all fluid types and two employees full time at every airport you fly in and out of. You can’t have a heated hangar available at every airport you fly in and out of.

Another reality is that backpack sprayers and heating pads are effective at removing certain levels of contamination in non ground icing conditions, and at preventing accumulation of contamination in SOME ground icing conditions—verified by a pre-takeoff check of the representative surface. Remember, that is still considered the final say that the aircraft is fit for flight—even if your holdover time has expired on a truck spray or when no holdover times exist for hand spray.

The existing regulations said that this aircraft was not safe for flight. Regardless of what tools they had or didn’t have, they had the choice to scrub the flight, and they had the knowledge that their aircraft was contaminated.

Banning backpack sprayers won’t do anything to solve that reckless behaviour, and it would deprive operators of important tools which would allow them to fly, legally.
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cv990
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Re: Westwind

#285 Post by cv990 » Fri May 04, 2018 8:41 pm

Not just this operator.. but there is always the option of not dispatching that plane. I may be mistaken, but was there freezing rain around at the time? Can’t recall, but...

I’ve had this convo before.. wx may be ok on the ground but am I in the crap for the whole approach? Will I be able to shed that? Is it likely to be snowing on arrival? Can we deal with that? If it is questionable then we need to talk about not going... but how much pressure is there to get the mission done? The company may say the right things when asked but implied pressure is quite another beast.
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Re: Westwind

#286 Post by spruceair » Tue May 08, 2018 12:10 pm

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Re: Westwind

#287 Post by pelmet » Wed May 09, 2018 3:44 pm

Zaibatsu wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:00 am
There’s already a regulation that covers everything.

It reads “Pilots shall not attempt a takeoff with contamination adhering to the critical surfaces of the aircraft.” It brilliantly encompasses any method you might use to deice the aircraft, and it doesn’t say that the most effective methods are a 100% foolproof way of ensuring the aircraft is clean.

It’s often those who protest against over regulation that want regulations banning things or forcing people to use things that won’t in all circumstances be helpful and may be a huge hinderance.

The reality is, you can’t have a deice truck with all fluid types and two employees full time at every airport you fly in and out of. You can’t have a heated hangar available at every airport you fly in and out of.

Another reality is that backpack sprayers and heating pads are effective at removing certain levels of contamination in non ground icing conditions, and at preventing accumulation of contamination in SOME ground icing conditions—verified by a pre-takeoff check of the representative surface. Remember, that is still considered the final say that the aircraft is fit for flight—even if your holdover time has expired on a truck spray or when no holdover times exist for hand spray.

The existing regulations said that this aircraft was not safe for flight. Regardless of what tools they had or didn’t have, they had the choice to scrub the flight, and they had the knowledge that their aircraft was contaminated.

Banning backpack sprayers won’t do anything to solve that reckless behaviour, and it would deprive operators of important tools which would allow them to fly, legally.
Excellent post...I agree 100%.
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Re: Westwind

#288 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Wed May 09, 2018 5:07 pm

With the quiet exodus that took place end of winter, I am waiting to see how long it takes before WWA is posting for 1900 crews and what their requirements will be going forward considering there are in excess of 5 other companies across the country that have been continuously posting similar typed positions for months now.

Its sad to see what was such a great company fall so hard.

S.
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Re: Westwind

#289 Post by GARRETT » Thu May 10, 2018 12:12 am

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:07 pm
Its sad to see what was such a great company fall so hard.
I totally agree. It's a real shame how such a good company allowed themselves to become so complacent.
I'm happy to hear the props are turning again. Hats off to the flight ops. staff who have worked tirelessly to get the operation compliant again, good job!
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Re: Westwind

#290 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Thu May 10, 2018 7:50 am

GARRETT wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 12:12 am
schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 5:07 pm
Its sad to see what was such a great company fall so hard.
I totally agree. It's a real shame how such a good company allowed themselves to become so complacent.
I'm happy to hear the props are turning again. Hats off to the flight ops. staff who have worked tirelessly to get the operation compliant again, good job!
I think there was always complacency - they never graduated out of the bush mentality that helped establish the company by getting the job done which required increased risk typically (and unfortunately) seen at the 703 level.

I think as demand increased and the Beech and ATRs filled more rolls - that complacency crept into the 704 and then 705 side while the ATRs serviced the Pronto routes, where there was generally less support (northern reserves vs Cameco mines).

Again - too bad. Greed got the best of them.

S.
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Re: Westwind

#291 Post by C.W.E. » Thu May 10, 2018 1:43 pm

Again - too bad. Greed got the best of them.
If the above turns out to be true I wonder how much they gained in the long run?
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Re: Westwind

#292 Post by Donald » Thu May 10, 2018 2:48 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:50 am
they never graduated out of the bush mentality that helped establish the company by getting the job done which required increased risk typically (and unfortunately) seen at the 703 level.
Unfortunately, this is true of many, many 705 operators that started out as 703/704 and still run both variants.
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Re: Westwind

#293 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri May 11, 2018 1:18 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 1:43 pm
Again - too bad. Greed got the best of them.
If the above turns out to be true I wonder how much they gained in the long run?
Really tough to tell. They had their strongest set of years in and around 2015 - that's when WWA was growing like a weed. They had Transwest on their backfoot, took enough business away from Courtesy to shut them down (I should say there were other issues leading to their closure), and bought out Osprey.

Seeing as how they chewed up all their competition and cleaned out the market - they are still the biggest dog in SK. So little has been lost there - but reputation is another story.

IMHO....

Had the ATR stuck to it's cushy mining routes, the Beechs and DH6s would've continued to serve those villages for years sans probleme.

Unfortunately with Cameco cutting back mines and charter flights, the ATRs needed routes to stay profitable. Here we are in 2018 scratching our heads wondering how an ATR ended up in the weeds and how there were no reasonable deice facilities present essentially at the 60th parallel in winter for a 705 operation with Saskatchewan's most 'profitable' airline.

:|

S.
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Re: Westwind

#294 Post by HO Driver » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:15 am

Well, I guess this doesn't come as much of a surprise. Big boots to fill, these two guys were top shelf.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=124814

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=124813
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Re: Westwind

#295 Post by Marauder » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:50 am

Agreed
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Re: Westwind

#296 Post by FlyGy » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:22 pm

I have a feeling they're gonna land on their feet.
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Re: Westwind

#297 Post by Dry Guy » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:23 pm

Appropriate avatar.
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Re: Westwind

#298 Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:36 am

Dry Guy wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:23 pm
Appropriate avatar.
Clever :mrgreen:
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Re: Westwind

#299 Post by atwork » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:10 pm

Saw the WEW ATR flying around La Ronge this afternoon
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Re: Westwind

#300 Post by FlyGy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:34 pm

atwork wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:10 pm
Saw the WEW ATR flying around La Ronge this afternoon
Probably a test flight with a buyer.
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