PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

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pelmet
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#76 Post by pelmet » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:15 pm

Maybe someone in the local area could try and find out for us. There must be someone from the flight school on this board. PM me if you prefer not to post it under my own handle. It is actually important to this debate and the endless wind theories we have been getting as causes for endless accidents.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#77 Post by Cliff Jumper » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 pm

pdw wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 pm
I have the experience that it requires to understand most anything to to with LLWS and smaller fixed wing aircraft, and also how to describe it fairly well.
pdw wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:17 am
Minimum detection possible at CWMM (10 Meters elev) if cooler air pooling temporarily in the lowlands there (low anemometer reading CWMM). Being off airport premises might account for a poor "V"eering reading esp among factory buildings right there. The "V" value (example 110V180), indicative of vertical llws potential on/above a runway, is also abscent where a station is not set up to read it.

CYXX (18nm SE/ upwind) had TCUs before / after .. 2-pm & 3pm Nov 23/2017. Lots of warm air going up in the area. Private surface wx stations southwest of 8R threshold/YPK .. show briefly drier/warmer(14-15C) Southerly and 10kts ahead-of the 2:45PM incident (IBCSURRE6 at 98Meters elev, IBRITISH438 96Meters, IBCSURRE21 82Meters, IDelta3 91Meters, IBRITISH292 79Meters).

Awesome. I write really goodish. See, watch this "Slabba dabba blutredy sploogoush"

If I wasn't 99.9% convinced he is a troll, I'd feel terrible for making fun of someone struggling with mental health.

But, in reality, in this situation, it's me (and us) who are the fools for continuing to respond.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#78 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:27 pm

Yeah, No Sh-- Cliff....

No longer amusing. Especially on fatal accidents.

Pelmet, agree.

Speak up flight school. Be accountable.

Tell us what happened. Don't play the PR game.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#79 Post by C.W.E. » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:41 pm

How can pilots learn from others mistakes / mechanical problems if flight schools keep these events a secret?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#80 Post by HiFlyChick » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:27 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:41 pm
How can pilots learn from others mistakes / mechanical problems if flight schools keep these events a secret?
You're not serious...?
Not keeping it a secret means full disclosure to TC, TSB, and their lawyers, not posting on a public forum

Yeah, it'd be interesting and educational to know what happened, but I wouldn't expect anyone involved in the accident to post here. To some extent even the discussion/speculation is educational because it gets us all thinking about factors that we should always be aware of... well, other than the very odd comments by some of the trolls (I don't get those guys - is your life so sad that you have to sit around making stuff up to tell to strangers who, BTW, recognize that you are spouting absolute crap)
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#81 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:57 pm

HiFlyChick wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:27 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:41 pm
How can pilots learn from others mistakes / mechanical problems if flight schools keep these events a secret?
You're not serious...?
Not keeping it a secret means full disclosure to TC, TSB, and their lawyers, not posting on a public forum
Why not? I have a real problem with this.

This is not the same as an airline incident, where any defect would be immediately disclosed, if not to the public, but to airline officials and pilots, mitigating future risk. This is a flight school, which might affect anyone off the street.

So for the benefit of liability, image, or whatever reason, we wait 2 years for an official report. Or no report, being a class 5, ever. So the information is never disclosed, in that case.

In the meantime no big deal. Except that the next time, if there is one, perhaps it rotates and someone dies, all because "it must be kept quiet".

I'd like to hear a good reason for that policy, that is in the public interest.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#82 Post by GyvAir » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:00 pm

Cliff Jumper wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 pm
pdw wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:40 pm
I have the experience that it requires to understand most anything to to with LLWS and smaller fixed wing aircraft, and also how to describe it fairly well.
pdw wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:17 am
Minimum detection possible at CWMM (10 Meters elev) if cooler air pooling temporarily in the lowlands there (low anemometer reading CWMM). Being off airport premises might account for a poor "V"eering reading esp among factory buildings right there. The "V" value (example 110V180), indicative of vertical llws potential on/above a runway, is also abscent where a station is not set up to read it.

CYXX (18nm SE/ upwind) had TCUs before / after .. 2-pm & 3pm Nov 23/2017. Lots of warm air going up in the area. Private surface wx stations southwest of 8R threshold/YPK .. show briefly drier/warmer(14-15C) Southerly and 10kts ahead-of the 2:45PM incident (IBCSURRE6 at 98Meters elev, IBRITISH438 96Meters, IBCSURRE21 82Meters, IDelta3 91Meters, IBRITISH292 79Meters).

Awesome. I write really goodish. See, watch this "Slabba dabba blutredy sploogoush"

If I wasn't 99.9% convinced he is a troll, I'd feel terrible for making fun of someone struggling with mental health.

But, in reality, in this situation, it's me (and us) who are the fools for continuing to respond.
I’ve stumbled on PDW’s posts on other forums around the web over the years, both aviation and non-aviation related. Even where I’m sure he was shooting for a thoughtful contribution to the topic at hand, head scratching is generally my reaction. I think there’s a heavy element of trolling to most of his posts here, mixed with actually believing some of what he’s writing on some level.
I think for the moderators of this forum, PDW falls into a similar category as Colonel Sanders. Both are/were frequent posters of sometimes amusing content that no doubt leads to an increase in traffic for the site. I’ve navigated here more than once out of curiosity as to what both of them had posted lately.
CS’s behavior finally forced the moderators to take action on him. In the interest of steering the conversations back towards something at least remotely professional, I think the point has about been reached where PDW might need a permanent vacation from posting here as well.
CS: In case you’re reading… I read your posts as much for the aviation knowledge you have to share, as the bombastic rhetoric entertainment value of them.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#83 Post by C.W.E. » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:12 pm

This is not the same as an airline incident, where any defect would be immediately disclosed, if not to the public, but to airline officials and pilots, mitigating future risk. This is a flight school, which might affect anyone off the street.

So for the benefit of liability, image, or whatever reason, we wait 2 years for an official report. Or no report, being a class 5, ever. So the information is never disclosed, in that case.
Liability may be the reason the school does not disclose why this accident happened.

Then again the insurance will pay to fix the airplane and there were no injuries so who is going to sue for liability?

And given the inertia of any government report here in Canada the odds are the cause will remain unknown.

Therefore no lesson can be learned from this.

Wonderful system.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#84 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:41 pm

In the absence of an answer to my valid question -- I love it when that happens -- I'll speculate:

Avoiding adverse publicity at aviation organizations "seems" more important than transparency that may contribute to overall aviation safety.

That "seems" the case in all of these Canadian aviation incidents, unlike the US where interim information is released. (In reportable incidents, that is)

In the absence of that system here, the affected operator should release that information on their own accord.

Why?

It's the right thing to do.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#85 Post by Cliff Jumper » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:37 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:41 pm
That "seems" the case in all of these Canadian aviation incidents, unlike the US where interim information is released.
The NTSB releases prelim reports with probable cause when Senecas go off the end of the runway?

Where can I go to read these?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#86 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:39 pm

Cliff Jumper wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:37 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:41 pm
That "seems" the case in all of these Canadian aviation incidents, unlike the US where interim information is released.
The NTSB releases prelim reports with probable cause when Senecas go off the end of the runway?

Where can I go to read these?
No. I broadened the discussion. In reportable incidents, point being some information is given in a timely manner. This is non reportable, so the operator should release information.

I again ask, for any good reason why they would not, that is purely measured by the public interest.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#87 Post by GyvAir » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:57 pm

Cliff Jumper wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:37 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:41 pm
That "seems" the case in all of these Canadian aviation incidents, unlike the US where interim information is released.
The NTSB releases prelim reports with probable cause when Senecas go off the end of the runway?

Where can I go to read these?
Aviation mishaps galore:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Month.aspx
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#88 Post by C.W.E. » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:01 pm

This accident was quite costly to someone, like the insurance company who will fix it or the owner who will fix it.

Therefore it is in the best interest of the flying community to know why it happened and if it was pilot error remind our self not to make the same mistake.

Conversely if it was a mechanical failure we could examine how we would have reacted.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#89 Post by Diadem » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:55 pm

GyvAir wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:57 pm
Cliff Jumper wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:37 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:41 pm
That "seems" the case in all of these Canadian aviation incidents, unlike the US where interim information is released.
The NTSB releases prelim reports with probable cause when Senecas go off the end of the runway?

Where can I go to read these?
Aviation mishaps galore:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Month.aspx
These look an awful lot like CADORs. Without conclusions, I don't see how they're any more valuable than CADORs.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#90 Post by GyvAir » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:04 pm

Diadem wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:55 pm
GyvAir wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:57 pm
Cliff Jumper wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:37 pm


The NTSB releases prelim reports with probable cause when Senecas go off the end of the runway?

Where can I go to read these?
Aviation mishaps galore:

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/Month.aspx
These look an awful lot like CADORs. Without conclusions, I don't see how they're any more valuable than CADORs.
Many (most?) of the incidents over a couple months old have final reports and data summaries with probable causes given.

Edit: I guess not as quick as a couple months for most of them, but it appears that all of them eventually get a final report with probable cause, in what appears to me to be reasonable length of relative to the seriousness and complexity of the individual incident.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#91 Post by HiFlyChick » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:57 pm
I'd like to hear a good reason for that policy, that is in the public interest.
I'm not saying it's in the public's interest, nor, for that matter, that it's a policy anywhere. What I'm saying is that you can't seriously expect anyone in the know to speak publicly at this stage. It's fine to say no one was killed, but liability issues will still be in play. If it was mechanical, the AMO and/or school could be sued by one or both of the pilots. Conversely, if it was the pilots' fault, the school could sue them, or the student could sue the instructor, etc etc. I'm not saying all that is right either, but it can and does happen.

I recall an accident around here years ago where two young licensed pilot brothers killed themselves on take-off due to black hole effect. The family sued the flight school that rented them the aircraft, the CFI who let them sign it out and the AMO who maintained it. Now, in that case there were fatalities, but it doesn't take a death for people to decide that they've been wronged and are due compensation.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#92 Post by cncpc » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:38 pm

pelmet wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:51 am
cncpc wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:03 pm
Tried to takeoff with full flaps. Left down after walkaround.

Not saying that happened, but it would produce a similar result.
I don't necessarily agree. I have not flown the Seneca yet but....I did takeoff accidentally with full flaps in a twin Cessna once. The takeoff itself felt perfectly normal. The only difference was that there was no acceleration during the initial climb. A full flap takeoff on the one light twin that I did it on had no effect on the ability to rotate the aircraft.
I did it in a Navajo a few years back. Did the walkaround, had some issue with a leaking oleo, then in the middle of the start checklist, the Ops guy comes out and starts a discussion about the oleo and where the aircraft was going for maintenance through the draft window. Fired up, taxiied to the end, did the runup, and started the roll. As the speed came up, I noticed something odd about the acceleration, struggled to V1 but made it and lifted off, and no climb. Gear up, over water by then. Saw the flap lever down, went to 20, then all up, and climbed out. I did sense something was wrong, but delayed rejecting until it was too late, and the airspeed was rising.

Those Seneca 1's had some issue with running out of nose up trim in the flare. You had to hold it up on your own for the last little bit. Not sure if this was a I, though, or if that explains this.

As I remember those handle flaps, I used to drop them just to get into the seat, so yes, not likely.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#93 Post by pdw » Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:44 am

Stallspin wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:12 am
Also curious on PDW's actual resume. Must take some serious education to understand wind so well.
My PPL groundschool training was very thorough. I started at 14 and over the years have been invited back numerous times for a refresher, which our school did for free after paying only once. The advanced IFR groundschool was extra.

EDIT:
TCu post edited ..previous page

What turbulence beneath ?
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#94 Post by rookiepilot » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:20 am

HiFlyChick wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:57 pm
I'd like to hear a good reason for that policy, that is in the public interest.
I'm not saying it's in the public's interest, nor, for that matter, that it's a policy anywhere. What I'm saying is that you can't seriously expect anyone in the know to speak publicly at this stage.
Yes I can, and I couldn't care less if anyone sues as a result.

Lawsuits are a GOOD thing sometimes --- and --- we need more of them in Canada. They enforce corrective behaviour.

The right of a student at that school, or of anyone else renting or flying in that particular aircraft type to know what happened, supercedes anyone's individual right protection from "snort" liability.

This is the same attitude that had the PR spokespeople at AC label the YHZ incident a "hard landing", and I personally despise that.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#95 Post by B208 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:02 am

Wouldn't the Schools SMS person do an investigation on this? Perhaps when that's done they might share the report.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#96 Post by pdw » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:07 am

If I was trying to keep my good reputation as a new pilot I would try real hard to avoid having a little slip-up broadcast all over the place. Hopefully the SMS systems can include some discretion to protect learning pilots from unnecessary slander.

I was a little worried once when SMS was still a new thing, when I was sure I'd witnessed a serious carb icing incident .. yet no aftermath info was shared with anyone. I remember thinking how dangerous it is not to share something like that with others, when it is made real within an actual incident. How are we to learn from the mistakes of others if they aren't being shared. I know ... who wants to admit they're involved in any kind of "pilot error" if that immediately threatens destruction of one's clean record.
rookiepilot wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:20 am
Lawsuits are a GOOD thing sometimes --- and --- we need more of them in Canada. They enforce corrective behaviour.
"GOOD" ?

Can't know that IMO ... if never having suffered one.

EDIT (for next post):
Student with instructor both could be learning if one is practising teaching (to gain hours) and the other is earning the license.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#97 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:11 pm

If I was trying to keep my good reputation as a new pilot I would try real hard to avoid having a little slip-up broadcast all over the place.
This was a bit more than a little slip up, it was an accident that did major damage to a twin engine airplane.

Hopefully the SMS systems can include some discretion to protect learning pilots from unnecessary slander.
The learning pilot was not the person in command of that flight.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#98 Post by Cliff Jumper » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:52 pm

Surely it's human nature to not want to air your dirty laundry?

Does this public broadcasting of personal mistakes happen anywhere in the world, in any occupation?

Do Doctors publicly broadcast all of the errors they make 'so others can learn'?.....Not that I've ever seen.

And I'm sure there are many more lives at risk there than there are connected to this Seneca accident outcome.
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#99 Post by upnatem » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:15 pm

Hey rookiepilot - tone down the rightious indignation!

Or, better yet, lead the charge to full disclosure when accidents or errors are made. I'm a rookieinvestor but I would sure like to become a better one. So how about you share some of your mistakes or poor investments so I (and others on this forum who are also likely investors to some degree) can learn from your misfortune. What possible reasons could you have for not coming clean in public - just like you think pilots should!
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Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#100 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:53 am

upnatem wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:15 pm
Hey rookiepilot - tone down the rightious indignation!

Or, better yet, lead the charge to full disclosure when accidents or errors are made. I'm a rookieinvestor but I would sure like to become a better one. So how about you share some of your mistakes or poor investments so I (and others on this forum who are also likely investors to some degree) can learn from your misfortune. What possible reasons could you have for not coming clean in public - just like you think pilots should!
Yes, I've made tons of mistakes. None to my knowledge have cost any lives, so it's completely different.

I actually do this a lot, teach for free on my industry.

Not for rude trolls, though.
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