PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
Message
Author
CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2861
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#126 Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:04 pm

Here's a suggestion: let's all just not bother replying to the insane theories, and only post here if there is any useful information or intelligent speculation to share.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Schooner69A
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: The Okanagan

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#127 Post by Schooner69A » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:45 pm

PilotDAR:

Yes, you have to come to Vernon. Coffee is on at the club house every morning at 1000 hours. We even have beer in the fridge for those who are really thirsty... (;>0)

PS About the windsock thing: you do know that my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek, right?

J
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#128 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:08 am

Schooner, I suspected tongue in cheek, though I don't assume that I know enough about a particular airport or flying environment to discard what could be valuable knowledge being passed along. I have flown into mountain runways, where the windsocks were pointed in considerably different directions. I assume that these possible conditions would be why the airport manager decided that it would be wise to put one at each end of the runway, rather than the common one at the center of the airport. So I pay attention, such odd winds could require an application of my skill in airspeed management, and aircraft control. Similarly, when arriving and departing lakes with nearby rising terrain, and no windsock, great attention is wise on a windy day.

But, in my opinion, none of the foregoing would have been a factor in a runway over run accident at Pitt Meadows. I would not want newer pilots to think that they could should attempt to attribute their accident to "winds" in such a circumstance. I'm certain that I'm not alone in this opinion. When investigating any accident/incident, the investigator must assure that they have considered the broad set of possibilities, which as HiFli and others have said, often comes back to a pilot doing their best, but it not being good enough, and then they don't recall the detail well afterward.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#129 Post by pdw » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:49 pm

"Component" is interpreted from a "sock", or from wave direction when float flying. Here at departure a sock would have been close to similar as IBRITISH217, only 1300m ENE/downwind of 26 threshold and 900m North of CWMM wx-station which is 1200m ESE of 26 threshold. At 2:42pm, which would be the approx departure time down rwy 26/275T, "217" shows SW 10.9kph-sustained there (coincidently at exactly the warmest temp of the day of that station, 13.9C). Then there are the two stations 800m north; IPITTMEA3 and IBCPITTM3 (2km NE of the actual incident on the runway) that have the record of easterly component at the time of this take-off roll.

The nosewheel would be light on the oleos if not elevated during the timing of this RTO decision in the middle of expected rotation. So the power maybe is chopped here while still at liftoff speed/AOA, and that would be higher groundspeed (which might prolong rollout airspeed too .. esp if farther along veers back to S/SSW/SW while braking).

From "10.9kph SW" in early roll (IBRITISH217/2:42pm) to an opposite direction "component" mid roll (ie: 4.8kph ESE at IBCPITTM3/2:48pm) is potentially already 10mph decay at this V1; so would that much decay suffice to trigger such RTO if unsuspecting (airspeed disruption) on the "nice" day ? How does a 747 like in the video fare if power were cut in RTO while nose high (as seen early in that footage) ?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Aviatard
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 336
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:45 am
Location: In a box behind Walmart

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#130 Post by Aviatard » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:36 am

pdw wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:49 pm
"Component" is interpreted from a "sock", or from wave direction when float flying. Here at departure a sock would have been close to similar as IBRITISH217
You do realize that those Weather Underground stations you're using data from are amateur home stations, installed by their owners, and likely without regard to placement. They're not reliable for wind direction and speed, or temperature measurements. Anyone can buy a $100 home weather station, stick it anywhere and start uploading data.

That particular station, IBRITISH217 has reported temperature of -40C and pressure of 4872 Hpa. Unlikely to be accurate for Pitt Meadows.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#131 Post by pdw » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:58 am

Yes, that's often the case; only that station's data (Pitt Meadows 'Casa de Douglas' weather station or IBRITISH217) seems nearly at peak accuracy Nov 23/2017, esp for that stretch of daytime surrounding 2:45pm (thoroughly cross referenced it). Some good ones seem to cycle/reset occasionally, where they kick out some weird interval totally out of character (and yes, a lot of them are not good). And esp as mentioned before when they are tucked among trees or buildings .. is where a search for "component" can get underestimated. I'd suspect that's possibly the case at IPITTMEA3 and IBCPITTM3 northeast of this V1 (ie: if weaker easterly readings too), besides the fact those station's interval times may not have captured the exact timing of peak strength either.

At 2:42pm IBRITISH217 is 13.9C at 20 meters of elevation there (station registered as being 11 meters higher than the nearby airport) and 1005.6hPa. Enter those 3 numbers (temp, elev, and pressure) into a Sea Level Pressure calculator and it should read out MSL ... 1007.99 hPa, which is basically the same as CWMM 900meters to the South (looks like IMO this "217" station is situated up higher too .. maybe a rooftop ?).

In this case that closest one to CWMM ("217") contains extra intervals between the 2&3pm hourly data GyvAir put on page one, which is the same as the airport's CWMM except for where it's history misses that closest/3pm METAR .. the one 10-15 min after this 2:45pm incident description.

Notice even on many of the very poor stations the changes in pressure still register very accurately even though you might not want to trust the readings themselves, and temperature as well, even though might be off by a degree or more. And most still useful here for verifying the lowest daily relative humidity trending in that hour / area.

EDIT/PilotDar
For proof we need actual math to calculate component / change affecting the accelerating laminar surfaces that are building up their required relativewind for the lift to be/become airborne on 'fixed runway heading' at the point of this expected rotation ("wouldn't lift"/CADORS). If truly the type of lift-off hesitation it seemed to suggest there, then going solely by one single light METAR 15min late over there among buildings at CWMM (a mile or two away) by itself could not be sufficient evidence to exclude component-variation as partly a factor. Yes, lots of other potential factors/contributors are already listed in this thread, some pretty good ones; and as someone posted previously, anything obvious would already be included in the CADORS.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by pdw on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hockaloogie
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:00 am

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#132 Post by Hockaloogie » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:15 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:08 am
attribute their accident to "winds"
"Winds" are responsible for all aviation accidents. Surely you know that. You've been around long enough. :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#133 Post by C.W.E. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:27 pm

So getting back to sanity, does anyone have any idea on why that airplane got wrecked?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
short bus
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:57 am

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#134 Post by short bus » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:45 pm

Please...... Just stop
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 902
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#135 Post by rookiepilot » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:51 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:27 pm
So getting back to sanity, does anyone have any idea on why that airplane got wrecked?
No. Apparently its impolite to even ask.
---------- ADS -----------
  

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#136 Post by pdw » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:54 pm

Stopping is OK, no problem.

edit FYI Rookiepilot, your first page post was right on topic ...
Let's assume you're correct, PDW, for fun. I've taken off with V .. 15-20kt moving from slight headwind to tailwind and back again ...

I needed some preparation to engage in that discussion, by first researching a surface analysis of the pressure-pattern (storm system) involved.
And then this from page one:
10kts should not be an issue in any light aircraft.
Again, for only that much decay normally yes; except that in this reference the refusal to rotate comes totally as surprise / out of the blue (only looks like the perfect/stable day) where nothing remotely unusual could be expected.

Certainly, when AWARE of strong or gusty you'd ALWAYS be poised/prepared to compensate (you're on the ball). Yet not the same here, when simply not anticipating anything like a peculiar shear-hesitation at that most vulnerable V1 moment ... especially just after having-established / been-shown weak component prevailing via preflight wx-check or windsock on taxi (a "nice day" all around).

The unexplained delay for liftoff by surprise, might briefly unnerve a beginner multi to RTO in a snap decision.
_____________________________________________
EDIT: If the control locks weren't left in. Wow, that's incredible

(weather clears up real nice ...and off we go)
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by pdw on Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:42 pm, edited 10 times in total.

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#137 Post by C.W.E. » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:51 pm

No. Apparently its impolite to even ask.
Yes there are some in this industry who seem to think that way.

To me it makes no sense to not discuss what happened and try and remember not to make the same mistakes.

It is unlikely it was a mechanical failure because they would have gone public with that information by now I would think.

So I guess we should be birds in this industry, ostriches and just bury our heads in the sand and see and know nothing.

Note:

I am aware that they do not actually bury their heads in the sand and it is only a saying.

I learned that when I got my degree in reading. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
  

BGH
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:12 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#138 Post by BGH » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 pm

Control lock was still in.

Daryl
---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#139 Post by C.W.E. » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:28 pm

Incredible!!!

I can't imagine starting a take off without doing a controls free check.
---------- ADS -----------
  

CpnCrunch
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2861
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:38 am

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#140 Post by CpnCrunch » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:30 pm

BGH wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 pm
Control lock was still in.

Daryl
Impossible. Every flight school has "controls free and correct" at least twice on their checklists.

Apart from that, it would imply that nobody noticed the control lock, the student didn't bother moving the controls while taxiing, and the instructor didn't do any of the above either.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 902
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#141 Post by rookiepilot » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:32 pm

BGH wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 pm
Control lock was still in.

Daryl
Thank you.

Was that so hard to be revealed, so we all know it wasn't mechanical? Beyond that I have zero interest in any gossip. Not my intent.
---------- ADS -----------
  

AuxBatOn
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#142 Post by AuxBatOn » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:55 pm

Lo and behold... It wasn't the wind!
---------- ADS -----------
  
Going for the deck at corner

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#143 Post by C.W.E. » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:13 pm

No but it sure says a lot about Montair.
---------- ADS -----------
  

7ECA
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 664
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#144 Post by 7ECA » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Been a while since I flew a Seneca, but since when do any of them or Pipers in general have control locks? The only thing I've ever seen resembling a control lock in a Piper, is a seatbelt wrapped around the yoke...
---------- ADS -----------
  
Honour is a man's gift to himself ~Duke Elegant
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.

AuxBatOn
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#145 Post by AuxBatOn » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:45 pm

7ECA wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:42 pm
Been a while since I flew a Seneca, but since when do any of them or Pipers in general have control locks? The only thing I've ever seen resembling a control lock in a Piper, is a seatbelt wrapped around the yoke...
Or this?



https://www.ebay.com/itm/PIPER-PA-34-SE ... 2492402136
---------- ADS -----------
  
Going for the deck at corner

7ECA
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 664
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#146 Post by 7ECA » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:54 pm

https://www.aso.com/seller/10226/old/main.htm

From my experience, I've never seen a Piper with any provision for the Cessna style of control lock on the control column. From the above link, it appears this is the only sort of option. On Aircraft Spruce their writeup for the same product states "...since Pipers and Mooneys do not have control locks..."

Edit: Not to mention, it's right in the checklist and the POH a number of times, especially in the pre-takeoff checks: Controls - Free/Correct, full range of movement.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Honour is a man's gift to himself ~Duke Elegant
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.

C.W.E.
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#147 Post by C.W.E. » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:05 pm

External locks can be made for most any airplane and they are attached to the flight controls, ailerons, elevator and rudder controls.

External gust locks are far superior to those in the cockpit control locks.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#148 Post by PilotDAR » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:19 pm

External gust locks are far superior to those in the cockpit control locks.
Yes, and I quite agree. But, gust locks are only needed for variable tailwinds, are you sure you want to open that discussion for this accident?
---------- ADS -----------
  

pdw
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:51 am
Location: A mile final 24 CYSN

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#149 Post by pdw » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:29 am

I guess you could ask how would someone not notice control locks if you're holding the aileron/elevator low if that's the side the wind is coming from. Unless ... there wasn't any while still taxiing for this take-off ?

Discussing gust locks would be the right way to carry on, now that the discussion is about the control locks.

Then Saabguy called it correctly at the beginning, unless BGH was also only suggesting it as an idea. But when that is verified, does the CADORS get ammended ?

And if so: ..Maybe more time in Sim during the previous day's bad weather? I mean how is including this checklist item adapted in the routine flights in a SIM ?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: PA-34 RTO @ YPK-What happened

#150 Post by PilotDAR » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:39 am

I mean how is including this checklist item adapted in the routine flights in a SIM ?
A very valid point. During my very distant sim time, I'm not sure if "Controls free and correct" was a checklist item. Are we normalizing deviance, if we employ procedures trainers which skip vitally important simple elements of good piloting? It brings to mind my time at deHavilland, during which we received a request that a Twin Otter landplane be equipped with a landing gear selector with working position lights. "Why?" was the obvious reaction to such a request. The operator explained that all of there other types were retractable, so they wanted the operation of a landing gear selector, and checking gear position to be common across their fleet. I see the logic...

If we are training new pilots that the primary walk around and "upon entering aircraft" checks are less important that programming avionics, we have a problem.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”