Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

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boeingboy
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Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#1 Post by boeingboy » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:15 pm

Don't pull that chock out......

Huh? Pull the chock out.....

No - Don't pull the chock out.....


From Global news
"A private plane broke free from its wheel chock at the Malta International Airport before crashing into a building on Wednesday, local reports said.

The Times of Malta reports that after breaking loose, the empty jet proceeded off the runway down a slope and crashed through a fence before it smashed into a nearby building owned by the Poldiano Group, a Maltese construction firm.
The plane, a Dassault Falcon 7X, is reportedly registered in Bermuda to Lord Michael Ashcroft, a former deputy chairman of the British Conservative Party,"

https://globalnews.ca/news/3935990/plan ... paign=2015
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pelmet
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#2 Post by pelmet » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:24 pm

I think I heard something about this happening in a rainstorm. One wonders how many gear had chocks in them. No idea what happened in this incident but it might be an idea when overnighting somewhere or bad weather is forecast, to have more than one gear with chocks installed. Or to ask yourself if it is OK to leave the brakes on all night under certain conditions.

It seems to be a general procedure in the bigger aircraft to always release the brakes once the chocks are installed, but there could be situations where you might want to consider first before just doing it. Otherwise.....the boss might not be impressed.

Ever been in a typhoon parked in an airplane? I have. Brakes and chocks can be helpful.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#3 Post by rookiepilot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:21 pm

Curious the product one might recommend to buff that out.
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GyvAir
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#4 Post by GyvAir » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:05 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:21 pm
Curious the product one might recommend to buff that out.
I'm thinking whatever they use, they'll be starting with some fairly course grit.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#5 Post by Chris M » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:16 pm

I'm actually impressed with how well the plane held up. It made it through all the block and even broke down the poured concrete portion of the wall.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#6 Post by Loner » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:19 pm

Chris M wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:16 pm
I'm actually impressed with how well the plane held up. It made it through all the block and even broke down the poured concrete portion of the wall.
That’s a 40 million euro headache ball ;-)
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#7 Post by Turbolag » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:40 pm

Quite the shame. I have several years of experience in this type and although it could be a little temperamental to get going, she was a dream to fly. I’m not sure of the conditions which lead to this event, but the 7X had amazing brakes and a very solid park brake. If you forgot to release it you could very well get a call from the FBO the next day to come back and take the brakes off. It would hold for a few days in the right circumstances. So yes, crews would routinely remove the brakes before leaving the aircraft to allow stacking. This puts the burden of stewardship on the ground support crews.

Good news is that current operators may have a few more parts in circulation given this event.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#8 Post by confusedalot » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:48 pm

Aw crap, sad to see. Suspect that there is more to this story than meets the eye.
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pelmet
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#9 Post by pelmet » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:24 am

Turbolag wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:40 pm
Quite the shame. I have several years of experience in this type and although it could be a little temperamental to get going, she was a dream to fly. I’m not sure of the conditions which lead to this event, but the 7X had amazing brakes and a very solid park brake. If you forgot to release it you could very well get a call from the FBO the next day to come back and take the brakes off. It would hold for a few days in the right circumstances. So yes, crews would routinely remove the brakes before leaving the aircraft to allow stacking. This puts the burden of stewardship on the ground support crews.
I thought I might post some good advice from another forum as food for thought for those in the bizjet/prop world concerning FBO's and expected very bad weather.....

"......be the Captain but you are also the manager down route. I have had several disagreements with airport authorities about leaving the parking brake on but I have also parked the aircraft at an angle across the stand so that it is pointing into the prevailing wind. I have also refused to park close to other aircraft when there is plenty of apron space available.

Do not be afraid to manage the FBO's and be strong. Be polite but be firm when needed.

Filling up with fuel is a good idea if you can.
Park into wind if you can.
Use the parking brake if you can.
Tie down if you can.

If your parking brake is not holding the pressure as specified then encourage your management/maintenance to get it fixed. It is often just a matter of tightening some unions or filling points but is always cheaper than other repairs.

Also bear in mind That pilots should be aware of the contents of the ground handling section of the maintenance manual. There will be limitations and advice in there which you will not find in aircrew documents.

Many business jets have points next to the jacking points where you can screw in a tie down hook. It is good practice to keep these tie down hooks on the aircraft with the other aircraft loose equipment such as the TR pins, fuses, jacking cups etc..

I once was asked by an owner why I was doing the above when no one else was. The next day when he came to board he was able to note some other aircraft which had moved and were touching each other!!!

Even if we consider that it is not our responsibility or fault it is still us who has to deal with the aftermath and it is us who suffer when the bosses aircraft is not available and possibly lose out if he gets fed up with it."
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#10 Post by Brantford Beech Boy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:38 am

Just the tip...
:mrgreen:

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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#11 Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:01 am

Turbolag wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:40 pm
If you forgot to release it you could very well get a call from the FBO the next day to come back and take the brakes off. It would hold for a few days in the right circumstances.

I doubt that... There was a brand new 7X that used to be based in our hangar a few years ago that left the aircraft parked on the ramp overnight in Bagotville (CYBG) with only its parking brake set (no chocks) and during the night (less than 10 hours after arrival and shutdown) the aircraft rolled back down the ramp into the ditch and it was all caught on the airport camera/video system.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#12 Post by gwagen » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:33 pm

11 posts and no Maltese Falcon references???

What happened to you internet?
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#13 Post by Chuck Finley » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:48 pm

Just the tip...
:mrgreen:

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And just for a minute.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#14 Post by Turbolag » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:23 pm

Quote:
“I doubt that... There was a brand new 7X that used to be based in our hangar a few years ago that left the aircraft parked on the ramp overnight in Bagotville (CYBG) with only its parking brake set (no chocks) and during the night (less than 10 hours after arrival and shutdown) the aircraft rolled back down the ramp into the ditch and it was all caught on the airport camera/video system.”

I’m glad you found that article and have based your opinion of the fleet on that one event. Sorry to say that this did happen but was far from the norm. Unlike the bizjets101 I fly now, the 7Xs would hold there brake pressure for a long time; days in fact.

I know the crew that was piloting the 7X in bagotville when it happened and discussed this fact with them.

Another posted had correctly pointed out that controlling the FBO staff will save you pain. True. But be careful. Tying down your aircraft may only serve to piss off the staff and get you in a difficult spot. Know your crew. Know your aircraft. Know your limits.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#15 Post by gwagen » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:08 am

Chuck Finley wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:48 pm
Just the tip...
:mrgreen:

BBB
And just for a minute.
AvE fan detected.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#16 Post by Darth Colin » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:23 pm

pelmet wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:24 pm
I think I heard something about this happening in a rainstorm. One wonders how many gear had chocks in them. No idea what happened in this incident but it might be an idea when overnighting somewhere or bad weather is forecast, to have more than one gear with chocks installed. Or to ask yourself if it is OK to leave the brakes on all night under certain conditions.

It seems to be a general procedure in the bigger aircraft to always release the brakes once the chocks are installed, but there could be situations where you might want to consider first before just doing it. Otherwise.....the boss might not be impressed.

Ever been in a typhoon parked in an airplane? I have. Brakes and chocks can be helpful.
What big airplanes, specifically, would that be?
Every airplane I've flown that has more than ten seats, we did otherwise. The only exception was after landing at a hot location, and a short turn around was planned.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#17 Post by pelmet » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:13 pm

Darth Colin wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:23 pm
pelmet wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:24 pm
I think I heard something about this happening in a rainstorm. One wonders how many gear had chocks in them. No idea what happened in this incident but it might be an idea when overnighting somewhere or bad weather is forecast, to have more than one gear with chocks installed. Or to ask yourself if it is OK to leave the brakes on all night under certain conditions.

It seems to be a general procedure in the bigger aircraft to always release the brakes once the chocks are installed, but there could be situations where you might want to consider first before just doing it. Otherwise.....the boss might not be impressed.

Ever been in a typhoon parked in an airplane? I have. Brakes and chocks can be helpful.
What big airplanes, specifically, would that be?
Every airplane I've flown that has more than ten seats, we did otherwise. The only exception was after landing at a hot location, and a short turn around was planned.
Boeing 737 and bigger. Admittedly, my business flying has been restricted so far to non-jet ops.

What did you specifically fly with more than 10 seats where you did otherwise?

And of course...as you can see on the thread posts....the FBO's like you to leave brakes off for towing while you are away. Welcome to the world of business aviation.
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#18 Post by Darth Colin » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:06 am

I used to park a B1900 at an fbo almost every night. To be honest, I think we left the brakes on all the time, but I’m not 100% sure. The airplane got moved all the time, and the fbo would release them if needed.
E190, A320 and B787 brakes always on if parked unless hot. A320 brakes would get released on short turns.
I guess it’s a matter of whether or not you want someone fiddling in the cockpit while you’re not around. And you can weigh that risk against the risk of what happened above.
CM
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Re: Falcon 7X goes offroading.....

#19 Post by pelmet » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:45 am

Darth Colin wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:06 am
I used to park a B1900 at an fbo almost every night. To be honest, I think we left the brakes on all the time, but I’m not 100% sure. The airplane got moved all the time, and the fbo would release them if needed.
E190, A320 and B787 brakes always on if parked unless hot. A320 brakes would get released on short turns.
I guess it’s a matter of whether or not you want someone fiddling in the cockpit while you’re not around. And you can weigh that risk against the risk of what happened above.
CM
Thanks,

Admittedly, I have been basing this on my own airline experience. A look at another forum that is more international seems to indicate that this can vary from airline to airline.

That being said, at an airline where there are frequently licensed mechanics on type who are working for or contracted by the company available, it is likely that the crew will be more comfortable with someone in their cockpit operating the brakes than on a bizjet at some FBO with which almost certainly has untrained ground crew. Which is why they want the brakes off(plus the bizjet could have the door locked). Business aviation is a very different world. Basically, the ground crew are not wanted on board, the ground crew know that, and therefore, frequently want your brakes off especially if it is a busy FBO and increasingly so based on the length of time the aircraft will be staying at the FBO.

So my recommendation is to think about whether you really want to leave the brakes off for them. Frequently, it is not a problem(assuming they don't damage something while towing) but as can be seen, it didn't work out too well in the Malta case. Crews might want to monitor weather as well.
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