DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

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bigsky
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DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#1 Post by bigsky » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:59 am

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180
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#2 Post by 180 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:24 am

The article didn't mention anything about the type of aircraft. SHS flies Caravans as well.

Condolences to the families, friends and co-workers affected. Very sad.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#3 Post by duCapo » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:32 am

I saw a photo of a Beaver cargo door being recovered from the river.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#4 Post by bigsky » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:00 pm

180 wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:24 am
The article didn't mention anything about the type of aircraft. SHS flies Caravans as well.

Condolences to the families, friends and co-workers affected. Very sad.

From the article

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau identified the aircraft as a DHC-2 Beaver Seaplane which was "on a return flight to Rose Bay, Sydney Harbour" from Cottage Point Inn.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#5 Post by 180 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:49 pm

They updated the article 7 hours ago. Original article that was linked this morning did not specify the type.

Regardless, very tragic, very sad, condolences to everyone affected.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#6 Post by bigsky » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:16 am

There is a Canadian connection to the pilot.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/2018/ ... identified

Again, RIP
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#7 Post by 180 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:30 am

Oh shit. Gareth was a friend of ours from Harbour Air. A super nice, very mellow, cautious, experienced guy. Terrible news. RIP brother.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#8 Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:01 am

Looks like a very preventable accident that killed 6 people because the operator was too cheap to install a stall warning.
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Last edited by CpnCrunch on Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#9 Post by Rowdy » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:07 pm

CpnCrunch, I'm trying incredibly hard not to have a full on containment failure with a bunch of gnarly words spewed in your direction. I've just lost a friend, a colleague, past coworker and incredibly wonderful human. Maybe exercise a little more discretion in the future mmmmkay?

The beaver has never had a stall warning system. It has been flown for the better portion of a half century without 'needing' one. The limitations are well known, as are the stall characteristics. Especially by those of us that have a bunch of time in them. Gareth included. I'm fairly certain he has over 10k in the book. I've personally flown with him on MANY occasions and always held him in high regard. Cautious, Safe, Calculated are all words I would use to describe the way he flew.

Sydney seaplanes is not a 'cheap' operator and knowing many colleagues and friends that fly or have flown for them, I have yet to hear anything even remotely marginal be said.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#10 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:28 pm

install a stall warning
The Beaver is certified with a stall warning system, which complies with the regulations. It's aerodynamic, and has worked well since certification. I've flown a number of certified types with aerodynamic stall warning, including a turbine powered one, and they work just fine. One thing is for sure, the warning system works, regardless of the status of other aircraft systems!
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#11 Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:29 pm

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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#12 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:12 pm

The investigation also found that the pilot had been regularly performing low-altitude manoeuvres during his sightseeing flights. However, such manoeuvres are not necessary for this type of flight.
So the TSB has taken seventeen months to come to the conclusion that the Beaver needs a stall warning to prevent further loss of life due to stall/spins in the DH Beaver at low altitude.

Now that is really impressive.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#13 Post by valleyboy » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:04 pm

The pilot from all accounts was an experienced and capable driver. My personal opinion and experience with a conventional beaver was that it was likely the worst bush plane I ever flew. I hated that aircraft. It was a wolf in sheep's clothing, under powered and was alway ready to kick you when least expecting it. I flew more than on aircraft with a nasty tendency to drop the left wing in a low powered left descending turn when flaps were pumped down. Flaps bleeding off on takeoff or landing, and stuck in the slush are all my fond memories of the "Canadian Classic". It is not worth the mystical level of awe that most hold it in. I certainly am in the minority but I saw her with cloths off and it wasn't pretty. If I recall correctly it was Australia where the first beaver shed a wing, I'll bet not many these days knew that the old Amik went though that.

Unless the pilot was playing silly buggar, which seems highly unlikely and given the clients on board I would hazard a guess that this is a well run airline. I would fully expect to find a failure of some type, like a flap failure which brought this aircraft down. Very sad indeed.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#14 Post by phillyfan » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:41 pm

Yes the Beaver can be very dishonest. However, yet again, we have no idea what happened. The guy had experience, let's give him the benefit of the doubt you jackals.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#15 Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:11 pm

I also would expect it was a mechanical failure given where and when it happened.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#16 Post by pelmet » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:15 pm

valleyboy wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:04 pm
The pilot from all accounts was an experienced and capable driver.
9000 hours on seaplanes.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/f ... spartandhp
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#17 Post by beaverbob » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:17 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:28 pm
install a stall warning
"The Beaver is certified with a stall warning system",

Incorrect. The Beaver was certified without a stall warning system. The piston Beaver was built for 20 years from 1947 to 1967 without any stall warning system.There have been no Beavers built since then.In recent years there have been a number of increased gross weight STC's authorized on the Beavers that included a stall warning system as part of the STC. I am only referring to the piston engine Beaver.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#18 Post by Blakey » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:37 am

beaverbob wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:17 pm
PilotDAR wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:28 pm
install a stall warning
"The Beaver is certified with a stall warning system",

Incorrect. The Beaver was certified without a stall warning system. The piston Beaver was built for 20 years from 1947 to 1967 without any stall warning system.There have been no Beavers built since then.In recent years there have been a number of increased gross weight STC's authorized on the Beavers that included a stall warning system as part of the STC. I am only referring to the piston engine Beaver.
Bob, I believe that DAR is referring to the Aerodynamic Stall Indication that the Beaver displays prior to a full stall. In these cases, the buffet of an approaching stall impinges on the aircraft surfaces in a manner which gives a clear indication that a stall is imminent. Certification is granted based on the fact that the airframe buffet is noticeable and precedes a full stall by an adequate margin to allow for pilot input to prevent the stall. As he states, it requires no electricity or moving parts to operate and is almost immune to false indications.

As well as almost all small aircraft produced prior to the late 1950s, the CC-130 has exactly the same system of stall warning.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#19 Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:27 am

Blakey and beaverbob: I think you need to edit your posts to fix the quoting.

Here is info from the TSB regarding the buffeting (or lack thereof):

"In the controlled conditions of certification, the stalling of the DHC-2 was described as gentle. However, as is the case for many other aircraft, a stall in a steep turn under power triggers an Incipient spin with few or no signs of an impending stall, and the flight path changes from horizontal to vertical. In low-altitude flight, stalling followed by incipient spin, no matter how brief, prevents the pilot from regaining control of the aircraft before impact with the ground."

How many of you have actually tried stalling during a steep turn in a Beaver? What indications do you get, and what actually happens?
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#20 Post by Rowdy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:04 pm

When I got my annual training in the Baron kitted piston beaver one year I was skeptical about some of the claims of its performance. CP and I climbed up and stalled the regular machine both from a wings level and then from a 45 degree bank turn and then with flap. We then jumped into the baron bird and got the feel for it too. The damn thing just descends at about 700-800ft a min while stalled in a very mild manner.. it was incredibly gentle and just sort of mushed into it, I also noticed much less of a wing drop tendency in the turn and more 'feel' approaching it'. From the 600hrs in that airframe I can tell you even though it was dog slow, it was great out of the water and at low speed if you needed to duck into and out of tighter lakes/rivers. I also found it MUCH nicer on landing and in the flare. Someone claimed it would't actually spin. Didn't ever try it.

Back to the regular bird. Both times you'll get a buffet. In the turn and wings level. The stall is a bit more abrupt in a turn when it does actually stall with a tendency like many have mentioned to drop a wing and the potential for an incipient spin if you don't correct. My memory is fading now, but I used to remember the specifics on how much altitude you needed to properly recover from the stall in a turn. Its not a fire breathing dragon.. She's just a comfortable old worn in pickup truck with wings.

While I am no expert and there are many others on here with bags more time in it than myself (over 3k last I checked) The damned airplane is going to tell you exactly what it wants in every regard. You'll feel the controls change approaching a stall.. you'll feel the need for more or less flap, more or less airspeed. You'll know well in advance when the 985 is unhappy. If you don't notice these things, maybe flying isn't for you.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#21 Post by CpnCrunch » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:25 pm

I'm wondering if there are any situations when the stall could be more abrupt. 60 degree bank? Starting the turn when already at low speed? Flaps down? Pulling back on the control column when in the turn?
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#22 Post by PilotDAR » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:55 am

I'm wondering if there are any situations when the stall could be more abrupt. 60 degree bank? Starting the turn when already at low speed? Flaps down? Pulling back on the control column when in the turn?
Yes. Aside from a few types with effective stall barriers, any of these may produce an abrupt stall, and probably a spin. Effective pilot training and currency are good for protection from this.

Many years back before I had flown Beavers, I had the honour of discussing this very topic with Russ Bannock. There had been a few Beaver accidents, in which stall had been a possible factor, and questions were being asked. Russ, after dispelling any concerns my inexperienced mind could develop, took me flying in his Beaver. It was artistry in the sky as he gracefully maneuvered his Beaver at low speed through many non level flight scenarios. I was then convinced, a Beaver, well flown, has no more vulnerability to a stall spin, than any other type. My flying in Beavers since has reinforced this confidence for me. Of course, the aircraft can be stalled and spun, and it may end poorly. That is a part of what make it a truly utilitarian aircraft. Other types (Ercoupe) are less utilitarian, as they have barriers designed in.

Like many helicopters, if Beavers, and similar bush types were only operated on wheels, airport to circuit to airport, there would be fewer accidents. However, when you take an aircraft, however good, and operate it in a maneuvering environment where there are many more variables, and perhaps fewer cues, norms, or landmarks, risks increase.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#23 Post by ragbagflyer » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:52 am

PilotDar, have you stalled a beaver in a steep turn at 5600 lbs? I ask because the stall is much more aggressive than a Beaver at 5090. By necessity you're also pulling a lot more power to maintain a level turn at a higher weight. It's a completely different animal 500 pounds heavier.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#24 Post by ruddersup? » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:39 am

Ragbagflyer you are soooooo correct. I've been there at that weight, absolutely no warning and scared the crap out of me. Don't play with this bird down low. Flap, flaps, flaps, max 45 degree bank, don't pull like a Cessna. Forget what some are saying "there is a stall warning", NOTHING ! !
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

#25 Post by sportingrifle » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:30 am

I was just down in Oz and talked to a few locals. Given what witnesses saw, the damage to the airplane, and the changes to the operators operations, it is starting to look like this had nothing to do with a stall.

If we want to debate the Beaver's stall characteristics, fine, but not every Beaver that crashes does so because it stalls.

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