DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

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CpnCrunch
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by CpnCrunch »

I'm wondering if there are any situations when the stall could be more abrupt. 60 degree bank? Starting the turn when already at low speed? Flaps down? Pulling back on the control column when in the turn?
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PilotDAR
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by PilotDAR »

I'm wondering if there are any situations when the stall could be more abrupt. 60 degree bank? Starting the turn when already at low speed? Flaps down? Pulling back on the control column when in the turn?
Yes. Aside from a few types with effective stall barriers, any of these may produce an abrupt stall, and probably a spin. Effective pilot training and currency are good for protection from this.

Many years back before I had flown Beavers, I had the honour of discussing this very topic with Russ Bannock. There had been a few Beaver accidents, in which stall had been a possible factor, and questions were being asked. Russ, after dispelling any concerns my inexperienced mind could develop, took me flying in his Beaver. It was artistry in the sky as he gracefully maneuvered his Beaver at low speed through many non level flight scenarios. I was then convinced, a Beaver, well flown, has no more vulnerability to a stall spin, than any other type. My flying in Beavers since has reinforced this confidence for me. Of course, the aircraft can be stalled and spun, and it may end poorly. That is a part of what make it a truly utilitarian aircraft. Other types (Ercoupe) are less utilitarian, as they have barriers designed in.

Like many helicopters, if Beavers, and similar bush types were only operated on wheels, airport to circuit to airport, there would be fewer accidents. However, when you take an aircraft, however good, and operate it in a maneuvering environment where there are many more variables, and perhaps fewer cues, norms, or landmarks, risks increase.
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ragbagflyer
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by ragbagflyer »

PilotDar, have you stalled a beaver in a steep turn at 5600 lbs? I ask because the stall is much more aggressive than a Beaver at 5090. By necessity you're also pulling a lot more power to maintain a level turn at a higher weight. It's a completely different animal 500 pounds heavier.
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ruddersup?
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by ruddersup? »

Ragbagflyer you are soooooo correct. I've been there at that weight, absolutely no warning and scared the crap out of me. Don't play with this bird down low. Flap, flaps, flaps, max 45 degree bank, don't pull like a Cessna. Forget what some are saying "there is a stall warning", NOTHING ! !
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sportingrifle
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by sportingrifle »

I was just down in Oz and talked to a few locals. Given what witnesses saw, the damage to the airplane, and the changes to the operators operations, it is starting to look like this had nothing to do with a stall.

If we want to debate the Beaver's stall characteristics, fine, but not every Beaver that crashes does so because it stalls.

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CpnCrunch
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by CpnCrunch »

"The company will not fly its remaining De Havilland Beaver DHC-2 aircraft — the type of plane involved in the crash — ahead of the release of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau's preliminary factual report, due by the end of the month."

Sounds like the change in procedures is just not using the Beaver until the prelim report is out. What did the witnesses see that wasn't reported in the news?
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sportingrifle
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by sportingrifle »

The Beaver that crashed at Hawkesbury impacted the water a relatively high speed (for a Beaver) as evidenced by the damage to the floats, forward fuselage, and wings. At the time it was apparently fitted with dual controls. Sydney Seaplanes are currently (as of last week) operating all flights with 2 pilots. I am not speculating on the cause, done if this could be a knee jerk response from the regulator, CASA. But there seemed to be little interest in the stall behaviour of the airplane with regards to the accident.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by CpnCrunch »

sportingrifle wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:25 pm The Beaver that crashed at Hawkesbury impacted the water a relatively high speed (for a Beaver) as evidenced by the damage to the floats, forward fuselage, and wings. At the time it was apparently fitted with dual controls. Sydney Seaplanes are currently (as of last week) operating all flights with 2 pilots. I am not speculating on the cause, done if this could be a knee jerk response from the regulator, CASA. But there seemed to be little interest in the stall behaviour of the airplane with regards to the accident.
Stall seems consistent with everything you are saying, and they were apparently in a controlled, steep turn when it suddenly dropped.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by Cliff Jumper »

sportingrifle wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:25 pm The Beaver that crashed at Hawkesbury impacted the water a relatively high speed (for a Beaver) as evidenced by the damage to the floats, forward fuselage, and wings.
Have you seen the damage caused to beavers from previous stall accidents into water?
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by sportingrifle »

I have only seen a few such as the one at Saturna and the one in Vanderhoof. Not all that many but none looked as demolished as the one in the Oz accident. In the Oz accident, the wings and floats were torn off the airplane at impact The birdcage was severely bent, the wingtip tanks were torn off the wings, and the front of the floats ahead of the spreader bars were gone - as in caved in and then separated from the rest of the floats . The engine was making lots of power. Anyway, I am no accident investigator but was talking to a couple of people who were familiar with the investigation. At that point, the investigation was not headed in that direction. I guess we will know in a month or so. Very sad whatever happened.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by CpnCrunch »

Here's a picture of the l'Eau Clair Lake crash:

Image

I don't know how high the Saturna Beaver got. The accident report said it failed to climb after takeoff, then stalled in a turn. Perhaps it was just a few hundred feet.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by sportingrifle »

Interesting and sad. Very different damage to the airplane in Oz. I can't easily post pics with my phone but the media had pics of the salvage. As I said, the front of the floats are just missing, the wings separated, both windshields missing, and to my untrained eye, the impact looked pretty symmetrical. I also can't help but think that a guy with 5000 hours on type could probably recover from a stall from 500'. Anyway, time will tell. Until autopsies are completed and control continuety confirmed, to me it is just speculation. And sad.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by CpnCrunch »

sportingrifle wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:16 pm Interesting and sad. Very different damage to the airplane in Oz. I can't easily post pics with my phone but the media had pics of the salvage. As I said, the front of the floats are just missing, the wings separated, both windshields missing, and to my untrained eye, the impact looked pretty symmetrical. I also can't help but think that a guy with 5000 hours on type could probably recover from a stall from 500'. Anyway, time will tell. Until autopsies are completed and control continuety confirmed, to me it is just speculation. And sad.
That pic was a stall from 50 feet, which is pretty low. Do we know what height the Sydney floatplane was at? You would think 500ft would be sufficient to recover. But who practices spins at 500ft? I'd like to think I'd do it correctly, but who knows whether I would instinctively try to pull the nose up.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by sportingrifle »

Video taken just before the accident showed it climbing out quite high, estimated 400-500'. Maintenance guy I talked to said the engine was producing lots of power on impact. Those are the only two things known for certain at this point.

Cheers Sportingrifle.
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bigsky
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by bigsky »

A preliminary accident reportnhas been issued.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/in ... -2017-118/
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CpnCrunch
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by CpnCrunch »

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... rator-says

It seems they weren't authorized to takeoff into the bay, but some pilots did it anyway. This time it didn't work due to the tailwind and high load.
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J31
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by J31 »

CpnCrunch wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:39 am https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... rator-says

It seems they weren't authorized to takeoff into the bay, but some pilots did it anyway. This time it didn't work due to the tailwind and high load.
Do you have some other source? I do not see in this article saying "some" pilots flew up Jerusalem Bay towards rising terrain. It does not look like a great idea unless you had lots of altitude much less shortly after takeoff.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by CpnCrunch »

J31 wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:25 pm

Do you have some other source? I do not see in this article saying "some" pilots flew up Jerusalem Bay towards rising terrain. It does not look like a great idea unless you had lots of altitude much less shortly after takeoff.
It says in the Guardian article.
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by J31 »

CpnCrunch wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:28 pm
J31 wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:25 pm

Do you have some other source? I do not see in this article saying "some" pilots flew up Jerusalem Bay towards rising terrain. It does not look like a great idea unless you had lots of altitude much less shortly after takeoff.
It says in the Guardian article.
My bad. I did not see the last few paragraphs... :oops:
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Re: DHC-2 Beaver accident Australia

Post by beaverbob »

I hate to bring this accident to the front again, but Global news said this morning that the pilot may have been knocked unconscious by a passenger. That would change the dynamics of this accident . Anyone else seen this?

Bob
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