WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

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Rockie
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#76 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:29 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:15 pm
The Pilots hold the ultimate responsibility, I don't "prefer" they "corroborate" with me, and I don't want them to act unilaterally against procedure because they "feel" it's the right thing.

That's the way the regulator sees it, that's why we go to school, that's why we get licensed, that's why we pay the dues, that's why we get paid the big bucks.
Try fulfilling that responsibility without your cabin crew. Discover, then go back and fight the cabin fire yourself since you're ultimately responsible. Control the drunken goon in 23D. Give the nice little old lady in 12E CPR and zap her with the AED. Get everybody off the airplane in 90 seconds yourself once you make the call based on information they give you. Or be thankful they made the call because you were incapacitated.

Just a suggestion Altiplano, but if you want the cabin crew to ensure you aren't just a useless mushroom sitting in your cave when it comes to those passengers you're ultimately responsible for, ditch the attitude. You depend on them.
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Last edited by Rockie on Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#77 Post by Mapleflt » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:34 pm

Let me reiterate,

You depend on them


Getting the airplane safely to the ground is the easy part, getting 100 panicked passengers off safely is the hard part, hope your up to the challenge !!
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Last edited by Mapleflt on Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#78 Post by confusedalot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:47 pm

Oh boy....

Anyways, my vote goes for the Westjet crew as making the right call, since the right Westjet wingtip appears to be blackened/scorched by the Sunwing APU fire.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#79 Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm

I think the limitations of the medium do disservice to the discussion, but I'll continue along the line just because.

I'm not saying I don't rely on them.

I'm not talking about CPR for a little old lady, or incapacitation.

I'm talking about who holds the final responsibility.

I'm talking about calling for unnecessarily evacuating people against procedure because they "felt" it's right. That's not how it works. It's not their call.

Maybe you guys also think the Lead FAs should be paid the same as Captains? The rest like FOs?

Or maybe you married one?

Put some pants on boys.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#80 Post by Mapleflt » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:13 pm

With all due respect you should have stop with this observation,

"I think the limitations of the medium do disservice to the discussion"

It would have been a good "command" decision !!!

My pants fit just fine thank you and my wife isn't in aviation thankfully, cheers
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#81 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:23 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm
Maybe you guys also think the Lead FAs should be paid the same as Captains? The rest like FOs?

Or maybe you married one?
It's just a suggestion Altiplano. Heed it or don't...but pants? Really?

You sound worried about losing yours if you don't remind everyone the second you step onboard who the Captain is....
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#82 Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:26 pm

Not at all. And it was a joke.

I just know who is responsible. You guys don't seem to mind if everyone is.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#83 Post by Rockie » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:43 pm

Nonsense. We just recognize the futility of trying to fulfil that responsibility without them. So you’re responsible. Ok. But if they don’t tell you what’s going on in the cabin you’ll be oblivious to it, and even if they tell you there’s nothing you can do about it. They have to deal with it.

Temper your awesome responsibility with a little realism Altiplano. You’re responsible but so are they, and they’re just as likely to save your ass as you are theirs.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#84 Post by confusedalot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:00 pm

Oh boy again....suddenly I feel bad for Altiplano.....(man, I need to find something else to fill in my times of boredom)

In order to support Altiplano's viewpoint, I too, as a former left seat driver, would be quite disturbed if a unilateral evacuation call would be made by one of his examples, notably a tailpipe flame/fire. An evacuation would be the worst thing to do under that type of circumstance. Same goes for a controlled and extinguished engine fire on the ground? Stating the obvious, the resulting broken limbs and sprained muscles don't warrant it?

This case is quite novel actually; who trains for ground collisions and simultaneous fires? I never got this over tons of training and rides.

A good lesson to all, who knows, maybe training programs will be reflecting this sort of situation in the future?

Maybe the SOP writers can chime in.....
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#85 Post by Gear Jerker » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:04 pm

Altiplano,

The whole point of CRM is to ensure all members of the team do their job effectively, and feel empowered to do so.

There was once a time when airliners crashed a lot more than they do now. No question there have been a lot of technological advancements, and system changes which have contributed in a significant way. However, accidents like KAL 8509, KLM 4805 etc where a domineering captain makes a mistake and fellow crew members do not adequately challenge them, are much less frequent because of research in human factors and the adaptation of those lessons. Yes, the captain has the ultimate responsibility. But to assume oneself to be immune to error, especially in a rapidly developing, confusing scenario such as this one, is dangerous.

Flight attendants at major airlines are trained professionals. Their job is very different than ours, but they are still professionals who must fulfill training and regulatory requirements on an annual basis. And to repeat others, YOU DEPEND ON THEM.

The investigation will undoubtedly uncover details which could have been handled in a more perfect manner. That being said, I and presumably the majority of posters in this thread, call it a success story as far as the WJ crew is concerned.

Get off your horse.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#86 Post by confusedalot » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:18 pm

Of course it is a team effort and everyone has a say.....I don't think anyone is debating that.

One thing about the legalities, meaning the CAR's, is that the pilot in command is always responsible for everything. Flight attendants are not mentioned.

Hey, it's not me, them's the rules.

Fire away.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#87 Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:20 pm

I know better to try to explain anything to Rickie...

But I stand by it. Flame away and call me names.
I just stated where the regulator mandates the responsibility lies. We are responsible for our passengers and the FAs assist us.
Do you think someone is suing an FA after a safety incident? No, they're suing the Airline and the Captain.

Also I never said I don't rely on them or accept their input. Despite me saying otherwise you assumed that. I stated I wanted SOP followed, you took it to another level.

I guarantee SOP and LAW everywhere is it's the Captain's responsibility. That's a fact.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#88 Post by FICU » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:32 pm

Nice job by the crew!

Overhead bins should be flight crew controlled and locked on departure from engines on till 10,000 feet and on descent from 10,000 feet till engines off so if an evacuation is necessary they can't be opened.. Doesn't matter what pax are told they always open the bins and take their stuff nowadays with no respect for the safety of others.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#89 Post by complexintentions » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:23 am

I think the only point altiplano is trying to make is that ultimately, no matter how it is delegated, the captain is - unequivocally - the final authority on the flight, legally speaking. With that comes both massive responsibility, and massive liability. So if those who do NOT share the same weight of legality take it upon themselves to make decisions that could adversely impact the operation, no matter well-intentioned...yeah, I'd be none too pleased either.

It's got nothing to do with willy-waving or being a domineering or non-CRM-cognizant captain. It's simply recognizing the reality that an airline crew is not a democracy and not everything gets to be discussed in committee.

For every overbearing captain there are 10 more these days who can't kowtow and genuflect to the cabin crew fast enough. The pendulum has swung so far from the "PIC is God" days that it's moving into the absurd. Such are the times we live in, with our ultra-feminist-worshipping culture, I suppose. All good as long as no one's feelings get hurt, right?

I watched a cabin crew order an evacuation in the full-motion cabin simulator on a recent refresher after an aborted takeoff for engine fire. Pity, as the simulated engine on her wing was still running as the pilots ran the checklist. I was envisioning the opening sequence of "Lost", with the pax jumping out the door and getting Hoovered into the intake. Fail.

I say there needs to be some balance, just make no mistake about where the buck stops, no matter how "empowered" other crew members may be feeling on the day.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#90 Post by atphat » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:09 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:20 pm
complexintentions wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:23 am
I say there needs to be some balance, just make no mistake about where the buck stops, no matter how "empowered" other crew members may be feeling on the day.
I guarantee SOP and LAW everywhere is it's the Captain's responsibility. That's a fact.
Yes and Yes. Altiplano and Complex are right.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#91 Post by Rockie » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:29 am

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm
Put some pants on boys.
complexintentions wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:23 am
Such are the times we live in, with our ultra-feminist-worshipping culture, I suppose. All good as long as no one's feelings get hurt, right?
Is your masculinity feeling threatened?

Like it or not men cabin crew have the authority to initiate an evacuation despite the fact you hold ultimate responsibility. Swinging your authority around isn't going to change that, so if you don't want them jumping out at the slightest provocation I suggest you pressure your respective companies to properly train them.

Be careful with the word "professional" as well because if you needlessly hold your bars over somebody's head you're off to a bad start. People in this industry generally know their jobs and the chain of command, and I've only once in my long career had to remind someone who was signing the logbook. That guy was the other pilot.
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Last edited by Rockie on Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#92 Post by FADEC » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:56 am

To go back to the ground crew part of this thread.

I was once being marshalled on to a gate at YYZ in a 767, The marshalling crew were well paid full time AC employees. There were wingmen in position.

I was concerned about clearance with an adjacent "Canadian" 747 (tells you how long ago)

I asked the FO to stick his head out the window. Wingwalkers were giving thumbs up; lead was marshalling "come ahead".

My FO yelled "STOP" which I did. The lead responded by angrily increasing the tempo of his marshalling; "COME AHEAD">

Our wing was under the wing of the 747; overlapping by several feet.

Maintenance came out to assess; they later told me that there was ""the thickneses of a piece of cardboard" between the wings.

i have seen professional and unprofessional behaviour by ground crews at all pay levels and places.

I started on the ramp; did several months, which gave an insight and respect for the job. Some are good; some are not.

This incident represents a lesson for all; be careful out there!
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#93 Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 am

It was one comment Rickie. I said it was a joke.

Can't explain anything to you...
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#94 Post by Rockie » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 am
I said it was a joke.
Uh huh..
altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm
It's not their call.
Actually, as per your FOM it is their call in any life threatening situation or in a catastrophic accident. You only need to be advised if possible. Seriously Altiplino, look it up.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#95 Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:54 am

Rockie wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:44 am
Actually, as per your FOM it is their call in any life threatening situation or in a catastrophic accident. You only need to be advised if possible. Seriously Altiplino, look it up.
I already addressed that Richie.

I'm not taking about a catastrophic life threatening scenario or break up... and even then they are required to notify the Captain first and ensure the engines are off.

Even Rapid Deplanement conditions require them to notify the Captain first and it's the Captain's decision.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#96 Post by Rockie » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:10 am

You really should read the section in the FOM Altifina. It says "advise if possible", not "ask permission".

I don't understand why you're arguing this, it's black and white. The "Any life threatening situation" is what should give you pause and be an advocate for extensive training of the cabin crew what exactly that might entail. As it pertains to this event a wingtip on fire could certainly qualify and the cabin crew would be justified in calling up the captain to say "The wing's on fire and I'm initiating an evacuation". As long as the aircraft is stopped and the engines are off they don't require your divine permission. If you don't answer right away because you're too busy polishing your epaulettes he or she pulls the handle having attempted to "advise" you and off they go.

PIC advised (if possible) as per FOM policy.

Get over it.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#97 Post by altiplano » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:44 am

I'm familiar with it Rickie.

If it's not possible to advise the Captain, it must be a bad day...

But again, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm not talking about not supporting crew making good judgement, managing catastrophes, or working together.

I simply said the Captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft and passengers, and the FAs assist him/her... That's a fact.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#98 Post by NewCommercialPilot » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:59 am

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with altiplano.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#99 Post by lostaviator » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:13 am

Those questioning the evacuation. There are burn marks on the WJ wing. Fire in close proximity to fuel.... And knowing the YYZ ground crews, they probably panicked, stopped with the burning APU right on the wing, then ran away.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#100 Post by Rockie » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:22 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:44 am
I simply said the Captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft and passengers.
That is a fact Allopinto, that you learn when you do your private pilots license. However I'm pleased to see your evolution in this thread from pontificating about who's a professional and "It's not their call" to appearing to respect what they do. There's hope maybe.
altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:59 pm
I'm talking about calling for unnecessarily evacuating people against procedure because they "felt" it's right. That's not how it works. It's not their call.

Maybe you guys also think the Lead FAs should be paid the same as Captains? The rest like FOs?

Or maybe you married one?

Put some pants on boys.
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