WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#26 Post by swimming » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:40 pm

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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#27 Post by A321 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:22 am

737 operators out of YYZ will have to adjust their business model and require all new hire pilots based in YYZ to complete 2 years work as a company rampie thus ensuring a reliable workforce that can not only load bags, marshal and fly but prove they can live in YYZ on $13.00/hr. (or $15.00/hr without benefits and paid breaks) :shock:
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#28 Post by Les Habitants » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:01 am

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:20 pm
YVRLTN wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:13 pm
If WS was waiting for final marshaling into the gate, maybe the tug driver didnt realize he wasnt fully on stand and thought he had more space than he did and proceeded as if WS was further forward.
Aren’t wing walkers supposed to remedy this issue?
On two occasions I have seen wing walkers taxi aircraft right into buildings (can’t see the wing of the aircraft in particular from the cockpit) while giving the all clear sign.

Wing walkers only help if they care enough to do their job.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#29 Post by HansDietrich » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:48 am

Here's the ATC link on Apron. "Action" starts at minute 15:50

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/cyyz/ ... -2300Z.mp3
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#30 Post by raven54 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:18 am

More often than not I see the wing walkers waiting in the bridge to see the aircraft start moving before they come out. This usually results in them trailing the tug by several, if not 10's of, meters behind the tug holding up their wand.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#31 Post by CL-Skadoo! » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:33 am

I'm curious, who are the people snapping the pictures from ramp level?
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#32 Post by Jet Jockey » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:47 am

I would say an evacuation was not only a good call but a requirements in this accident...


Excerpt from CBC News:

'It was chaos'

When the planes struck, amusement turned to panic on board WestJet's Boeing 737-800, according to passenger Gustavo Lobo.

"Out of nowhere there was an audible crunch and the plane rocked slightly," Lobo told CBC News. "We looked out the window and saw that the plane had backed up into us. Everyone was a little shocked and kind of chuckling at the situation."

They didn't laugh for long, he said.

"Panic set in when [we saw] what seemed to be fuel spewing from the crash. After a couple of seconds the entire thing ignited and it was chaos inside the plane. People screaming and panicking all while the flight attendants shouted to try and control the situation."

Lobo took a video of the fire, and said eventually everybody slid down the emergency slides to safety, though the process was slowed by passengers who insisted on taking their carry-on luggage with them.

Ali Alagheband, also on the flight with his wife and 12-year-old son, said a "big ball of fire" lit up the right-side windows just seconds after the plane rattled with the force of the collision.

"Everybody was saying the F-word and screaming," Alagheband said, adding that he mostly stayed calm until black smoke seeped into cabin.

"The flight attendants kept saying 'remain seated, remain seated,'" he recalled. Fearing they'd soon be gasping for air and stuck on the plane, he told his son to stay calm and wear an oxygen mask if they fell from the cabin's ceiling.

"There was fire and there was fuel in that wing," he said. A mechanical engineer by trade, he could tell "it wasn't a good situation."

Nobody knew an evacuation was underway until a passenger stood on his seat and yelled that a door had opened, he said.

But as the crowd moved toward the door, some passengers blocked his family's escape.

"I was yelling at people reaching overhead to get their bags. It was ridiculous," he said. "I was literally yelling, 'Get the F off the plane."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0grpjM3ulb4
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#33 Post by Noo » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:35 am

Communication to the passengers in an evacuation is critical. Lack of information leads to people making their own decisions based on often wrong ideas and chaos ensues.

Being reminded to leave carry-on baggage behind should also be part of every evacuation announcement because even though some airlines mention this in the pre-flight briefing it is often forgotten. This is a critical item that leads to massive delays in evacuation.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#34 Post by montado » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:26 am

To the Westjet crew on this flight:

I was not there, but from the audio clips, the pictures, the videos, the passengers accounts in the midia. You guys and galls all acted with the most professionalism in an unplanned evacuation. With all the challenges, clearly after a long duty day, at a time you are ready to set the break and get some rest, when you are least expecting your day could be turned upside down. For the cabin crew to be so assertive to tell the passengers to remain seated, clearly this crews training kicked right in. I can only imagine trying to command a cabin with scared shitless passengers thinking the wing is about to explode! Obviously passengers may become irrational and combative thinking they are in a life and death situation.

For the pilots upfront who have little time to make a decision. I know the right call was made. For anyone here to question why an evacuation took place has amazing hindsight bias. “Oh look the plane did not burn to the ground, why would you evacuate in the cold, very questionable actions” -says Moron Hindsight

All I know is at the end of my day I empathize knowing someone who does the same job as me is going through a really shitty day at work. Y’all deserve a pat on the back for a job well done.

Cheers.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#35 Post by plhought » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:35 am

From what's being reported I'm actually kind of sceptical the evacuation was even ordered from the cabin/cockpit crew....
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#36 Post by mbav8r » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:41 am

Good job!
Clearly looking at the photo of the WJ wing, the fire was in contact long enough to cause significant damage.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#37 Post by mbav8r » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:42 am

plhought wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:35 am
From what's being reported I'm actually kind of sceptical the evacuation was even ordered from the cabin/cockpit crew....
Have a look at the photo of the WJ wing, if you would not have evacuated, I question your judgement!
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#38 Post by bob99 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:48 am

plhought wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:35 am
From what's being reported I'm actually kind of sceptical the evacuation was even ordered from the cabin/cockpit crew....
There's video from inside the plane where you can hear the Captain making the "evacuation" announcement. And on the ATC clip they declare an emergency and tell apron they're evacuating.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#39 Post by montado » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:50 am

plhought wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:35 am
From what's being reported I'm actually kind of sceptical the evacuation was even ordered from the cabin/cockpit crew....
I can confirm I saw a video in the cabin where i heard evacuate 3 times on the pa. I also heard audio where they told apron they are going to evacuate and declare mayday.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#40 Post by plhought » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:27 pm

Do we have link to this video? The one I've seen starts with the 'remain seated' after the first big boom, and then it's kinda tough to tell. I hear one person trying to calm others down by saying "it's not our plane on fire guys", followed a few seconds later with some rustling and what sounds like maybe a PA call with some call chines or a loud exclamation of some sort? Followed by more rustling and the videographer saying "grab your jacket" followed by the end.

I'm not trying to fault crew here - it's more then utter disregard by what appears to be half the passengers taking matters in to their own hands and what appears to really agitate and confuse those dutifully listening to commands. From what it sounds like from the numerous news articles and (albeit unconfirmed) social media posts, it kinda sounds like the evacuation kinda started haphazardly from passengers inside followed by the eventual (commanded) opening of doors.

All I'm getting at is the excellent example of Air France in YYZ seems to have eroded from the travelling-public's consciousness.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#41 Post by Rowdy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:51 pm

That could have been catastrophic. I'd have ordered the evacuation as well. Glad it's just some bent/crisp tin and no major injuries or hull loses. Kudos to the WJ crew.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#42 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:02 pm

I don't think I could be held accountable for what I would do to some idiot trying to get their oversized carry on out of an overhead bin during an evacuation.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#43 Post by RatherBeFlying » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:52 pm

Once people see flames and smoke is getting into the cabin, in this case likely from the bleeds, it is time to evacuate.

It is beyond idiotic to tell people to remain seated in the presence of smoke and flames as that simply adds to the panic as is completely obvious in certain videos.

The cabin crew training remains willfully blind to natural human instincts of self preservation and protection of family members when confined in a narrow tube in the presence of smoke and flames.

While much of the time the cabin will not be intruded by flames, smoke is the killer. Smoke can incapacitate in seconds.

Once there's an uncontrolled fire, none of us can guarantee that the cabin atmosphere will remain breathable for the next two minutes certification standards allow allow for evacuation.

We were lucky this time.

There should be a pre landing briefing half an hour out to advise passengers to:
  • an evacuation may be necessary
  • retrieve documents and medications from cabin baggage now
  • passengers are encouraged to forceably remove anybody from the aisle who is blocking evacuation while retrieving cabin baggage
  • all cabin baggage taken outside will be seized and destroyed
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#44 Post by Sharklasers » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:59 pm

RatherBeFlying wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:52 pm
Once people see flames and smoke is getting into the cabin, in this case likely from the bleeds, it is time to evacuate.

It is beyond idiotic to tell people to remain seated in the presence of smoke and flames as that simply adds to the panic as is completely obvious in certain videos.

The cabin crew training remains willfully blind to natural human instincts of self preservation and protection of family members when confined in a narrow tube in the presence of smoke and flames.

While much of the time the cabin will not be intruded by flames, smoke is the killer. Smoke can incapacitate in seconds.

Once there's an uncontrolled fire, none of us can guarantee that the cabin atmosphere will remain breathable for the next two minutes certification standards allow allow for evacuation.

This
This statement demonstrates your complete ignorance of airline evacuation procedures. They wanted the pax to sit down long enough for them to spool down the engines so as not to liquefy panicked passengers as they instinctively bail from the ship and straight into a running CFM56.
"Remain seated" PA is the industry standard first step in the emergency evacuation procedure.
There is no doubt in my mind that the crew intended to keep those passengers onboard for one millisecond more than needed.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#45 Post by montado » Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:30 pm

RatherBeFlying wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:52 pm
Once people see flames and smoke is getting into the cabin, in this case likely from the bleeds, it is time to evacuate.

It is beyond idiotic to tell people to remain seated in the presence of smoke and flames as that simply adds to the panic as is completely obvious in certain videos.

The cabin crew training remains willfully blind to natural human instincts of self preservation and protection of family members when confined in a narrow tube in the presence of smoke and flames.

While much of the time the cabin will not be intruded by flames, smoke is the killer. Smoke can incapacitate in seconds.

Once there's an uncontrolled fire, none of us can guarantee that the cabin atmosphere will remain breathable for the next two minutes certification standards allow allow for evacuation.

This
How are the cabin crew going to be able to asses the situation if the passengers flood the aisle? How do they know what slides are safe to evacuate? Of course you tell everyone to remain seated so you can go look and assess. Then you will be straight to the phone to relay this information to the pilots who have to make the decision and prepare the aircraft for an evacuation.

As a flight attendant for all you know the pilots are not even aware of the fire or that the aircraft was hit. And what your advice is to let the passengers do what feels right for them. Let them self asses their ass into a running engine. Nothing but compliments for this crew from myself. Cheers!
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#46 Post by mantogasrsrwy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:44 pm

RatherBeFlying wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:52 pm
Once people see flames and smoke is getting into the cabin, in this case likely from the bleeds, it is time to evacuate.

It is beyond idiotic to tell people to remain seated in the presence of smoke and flames as that simply adds to the panic as is completely obvious in certain videos.

The cabin crew training remains willfully blind to natural human instincts of self preservation and protection of family members when confined in a narrow tube in the presence of smoke and flames.

While much of the time the cabin will not be intruded by flames, smoke is the killer. Smoke can incapacitate in seconds.

Once there's an uncontrolled fire, none of us can guarantee that the cabin atmosphere will remain breathable for the next two minutes certification standards allow allow for evacuation.

This
I have to agree with previous posters, your post screams of ignorance as far as how an evacuation is supposed to go. When you get to the big leagues you will learn.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#47 Post by matthew.oommen » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:00 pm

mantogasrsrwy wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:44 pm
RatherBeFlying wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:52 pm
Once people see flames and smoke is getting into the cabin, in this case likely from the bleeds, it is time to evacuate.

It is beyond idiotic to tell people to remain seated in the presence of smoke and flames as that simply adds to the panic as is completely obvious in certain videos.

The cabin crew training remains willfully blind to natural human instincts of self preservation and protection of family members when confined in a narrow tube in the presence of smoke and flames.

While much of the time the cabin will not be intruded by flames, smoke is the killer. Smoke can incapacitate in seconds.

Once there's an uncontrolled fire, none of us can guarantee that the cabin atmosphere will remain breathable for the next two minutes certification standards allow allow for evacuation.

This
I have to agree with previous posters, your post screams of ignorance as far as how an evacuation is supposed to go. When you get to the big leagues you will learn.

You are 💯 right, but give the poor guy a break. He’s just trying to throw in his 2 pence.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#48 Post by RatherBeFlying » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:01 pm

This statement demonstrates your complete ignorance of airline evacuation procedures. They wanted the pax to sit down long enough for them to spool down the engines so as not to liquefy panicked passengers as they instinctively bail from the ship and straight into a running CFM56.
"Remain seated" PA is the industry standard first step in the emergency evacuation procedure.
There is no doubt in my mind that the crew intended to keep those passengers onboard for one millisecond more than needed.
Then inform the passengers that evacuation will begin when the engines have been shut down. Keep the passengers in the information loop. The Sewol passengers were told to return to their cabins and wait for instructions. Unfortunately the capsize trapped some 300 victims.
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#49 Post by FAD3C » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:06 pm

RatherBeFlying wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:52 pm
Once people see flames and smoke is getting into the cabin, in this case likely from the bleeds, it is time to evacuate.

It is beyond idiotic to tell people to remain seated in the presence of smoke and flames as that simply adds to the panic as is completely obvious in certain videos.

The cabin crew training remains willfully blind to natural human instincts of self preservation and protection of family members when confined in a narrow tube in the presence of smoke and flames.

While much of the time the cabin will not be intruded by flames, smoke is the killer. Smoke can incapacitate in seconds.

Once there's an uncontrolled fire, none of us can guarantee that the cabin atmosphere will remain breathable for the next two minutes certification standards allow allow for evacuation.

We were lucky this time.

There should be a pre landing briefing half an hour out to advise passengers to:
  • an evacuation may be necessary
  • retrieve documents and medications from cabin baggage now
  • passengers are encouraged to forceably remove anybody from the aisle who is blocking evacuation while retrieving cabin baggage
  • all cabin baggage taken outside will be seized and destroyed
You got roasted soo good. It was amazing.

Glad everyone was ok otherwise, from the right decisions made!
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Re: WestJet and Sunwing ground collision - YYZ

#50 Post by Sharklasers » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:18 pm

RatherBeFlying wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:01 pm
This statement demonstrates your complete ignorance of airline evacuation procedures. They wanted the pax to sit down long enough for them to spool down the engines so as not to liquefy panicked passengers as they instinctively bail from the ship and straight into a running CFM56.
"Remain seated" PA is the industry standard first step in the emergency evacuation procedure.
There is no doubt in my mind that the crew intended to keep those passengers onboard for one millisecond more than needed.
Then inform the passengers that evacuation will begin when the engines have been shut down. Keep the passengers in the information loop. The Sewol passengers were told to return to their cabins and wait for instructions. Unfortunately the capsize trapped some 300 victims.
Sorry chief, hands are full running the whole evacuation checklist. If you watched the same video I did the time from "remain seated" to "evacute" was about about 20 seconds. If the captain had to suspend the checklist to make a PA explaining his motivations it would prolong (double) the time it takes to prepare the ship for a safe egress. there are engines to shut down and secure, fuel to cut, ATC to be advised, electrical buses to be turned off. Ect. It's a short checklist that we practice often in the sim, then we bail out.
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