Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

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CpnCrunch
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#26 Post by CpnCrunch » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:55 am

mbav8r wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:32 am
Just an assumption, but perhaps the previous aircraft hit or reported the dead coyote, tower made several attempts to contact the aircraft, likely to initiate a go around or maybe offer a sidestep to the other runway.
I doubt very much it was closed when they first joined the approach.
Yeah, that seems to be what happened, from listening to the tower archive: aircraft reports hitting a coyote about 3 mins prior. Tower contacts #1 to ask them if they want to go missed. I think Encore was #2 at this point. A minute later Tower tries to contact Encore, but they don't respond.

I tried listening to the arrival archives, but they're a bit crap. It seems liveatc merges arrival and departure (it's two different voices), and the arrival is very faint. I didn't hear any calls to Encore 3130 on it.

One possibility is ATC forgot to hand them over, or Encore missed the handover and ATC just didn't notice. ATC aren't immune to mistakes. A while ago I was on completely the wrong altimeter setting with Vancouver Terminal...I didn't hear the setting they gave me, and asked to confirm if it was xxxx, but they didn't hear me or ignored my call, so I was about 400ft too low for a few minutes until they queried my altitude. (This was VFR).
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HiFlyChick
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#27 Post by HiFlyChick » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:14 pm

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:10 pm
.... I’ve even asked when the guy beside me had read it back less than 30 seconds before. “Hey man, are we cleared to land?”
No harm in asking again just to be safe....
Yep - been there, done that (sometime around 0900 when we'd been flying all night): "He cleared us to land, didn't he?" "I don't know, I think he did..." "I think so too, but I don't know... <sigh> ask him..."

'Course, substitute in "He must've..." with "I think so" and you've got the difference, and that's a pretty subtle difference after a long hard night - good lesson for all of us to be absolutely sure
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cossack
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#28 Post by cossack » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:58 pm

HiFlyChick wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:14 pm
Yep - been there, done that (sometime around 0900 when we'd been flying all night): "He cleared us to land, didn't he?" "I don't know, I think he did..." "I think so too, but I don't know... <sigh> ask him..."
We' (ATC) are definitely not immune from memory lapses which is why, when we issue a landing clearance, we put a check mark on your electronic flight data. ;)
Is there no aide-memoire available to pilots? I've noticed the landing lights come on when cleared to land or the pulse light landing lights on some biz-jets go solid on when cleared.
I have found that there are a lot of late/missed switches when cleared for the approach and told to call the tower at the FAF which might be a few minutes away. Easy to forget if you're configuring for landing just prior to the FAF.
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#29 Post by ant_321 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:05 pm

cossack wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:58 pm
HiFlyChick wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:14 pm
Yep - been there, done that (sometime around 0900 when we'd been flying all night): "He cleared us to land, didn't he?" "I don't know, I think he did..." "I think so too, but I don't know... <sigh> ask him..."
We' (ATC) are definitely not immune from memory lapses which is why, when we issue a landing clearance, we put a check mark on your electronic flight data. ;)
Is there no aide-memoire available to pilots? I've noticed the landing lights come on when cleared to land or the pulse light landing lights on some biz-jets go solid on when cleared.
I have found that there are a lot of late/missed switches when cleared for the approach and told to call the tower at the FAF which might be a few minutes away. Easy to forget if you're configuring for landing just prior to the FAF.
I've used some light as an indicator on everything I've flown. Taxi light on most, retractable landing lights on 737's that have them.
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Rowdy
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#30 Post by Rowdy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:25 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:05 pm
cossack wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:58 pm
HiFlyChick wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:14 pm
Yep - been there, done that (sometime around 0900 when we'd been flying all night): "He cleared us to land, didn't he?" "I don't know, I think he did..." "I think so too, but I don't know... <sigh> ask him..."
We' (ATC) are definitely not immune from memory lapses which is why, when we issue a landing clearance, we put a check mark on your electronic flight data. ;)
Is there no aide-memoire available to pilots? I've noticed the landing lights come on when cleared to land or the pulse light landing lights on some biz-jets go solid on when cleared.
I have found that there are a lot of late/missed switches when cleared for the approach and told to call the tower at the FAF which might be a few minutes away. Easy to forget if you're configuring for landing just prior to the FAF.
I've used some light as an indicator on everything I've flown. Taxi light on most, retractable landing lights on 737's that have them.
We use the lights as well. approach lights on through 10k.. landing and taxi light when cleared to land.

I can't count how many times I've looked over and said 'did they clear us?' when on short final because the lights weren't on.
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BE20 Driver
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#31 Post by BE20 Driver » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 pm

many pilots use the landing lights as an aid. It isn't an official SOP at many of the places I've worked, just a habit that some people do.
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Heliian
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#32 Post by Heliian » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:29 pm

Maybe it's just that west coast attitude.
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Donald
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#33 Post by Donald » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:45 pm

Amazing how when one airline crew does it, everybody questions their training, discipline, and company ethic; all while demanding the crew be strung up and fired.

A Westjet (Encore) crew does it, and it's a "good learning experience".
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Boney
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#34 Post by Boney » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:00 pm

I missed a handoff call on downwind. Heard ATC calling on 121.5 on radio two. That got me back on track.

Stuff happenes when you least expect it.

Cheers.
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#35 Post by altiplano » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:21 pm

Donald wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:45 pm
Amazing how when one airline crew does it, everybody questions their training, discipline, and company ethic; all while demanding the crew be strung up and fired.

A Westjet (Encore) crew does it, and it's a "good learning experience".
LOL... and those guys HAD a clearance.
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#36 Post by HiFlyChick » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:34 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:21 pm
Donald wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:45 pm
Amazing how when one airline crew does it, everybody questions their training, discipline, and company ethic; all while demanding the crew be strung up and fired.

A Westjet (Encore) crew does it, and it's a "good learning experience".
LOL... and those guys HAD a clearance.
Good point - I never did quite understand the big brouhaha over them landing when they had been cleared. That happened to me before and I didn't figure it out until I switched radios because I had ground dialed in on the #2. These guys landed with a clearance - not saying it wasn't bad, but still a good idea for the rest of us to use as a cautionary tale if it's a case of fatigue....
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Encore lands without clearance, off frequency.

#37 Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:22 am

cossack wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:58 pm
We' (ATC) are definitely not immune from memory lapses which is why, when we issue a landing clearance, we put a check mark on your electronic flight data. ;)
Is there no aide-memoire available to pilots? I've noticed the landing lights come on when cleared to land or the pulse light landing lights on some biz-jets go solid on when cleared.
I have found that there are a lot of late/missed switches when cleared for the approach and told to call the tower at the FAF which might be a few minutes away. Easy to forget if you're configuring for landing just prior to the FAF.
from the Air Transat A-330 SOP:
Set NOSE sw and RWY TURN OFF sw to ON, when landing clearance received
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