Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

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rookiepilot
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by rookiepilot »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:02 pm
Oh dear.... where to start....

You are certainly within reach of Toronto Center at 2 grand over Kap... worse case you could have relayed though YTS (They are friendly)....

Keep yourself safe, follow the plate and MOCA and don’t be shy?

All the best,

TPC
Talk to Centre at 2000' over Kap? Not unless something has changed...it has been a couple of years. 5-6 grand, on departure too. Through London RDO....sure, that works right to the ground.

The YTS relay is a good idea, if ever needed. It was not.

Thanks for the tips, though
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

CpnCrunch wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:55 am
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:20 am

What do you mean that they don't. Canada is just as ICAO as Mexico. Elaborate please.....
Yes, but not all countries implement all the ICAO standards. Remember "position and hold"?
Most countries DO NOT implement ALL ICAO standards, including Canada. The US leads the pack......
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by confusedalot »

Actually.........most countries do follow icao. But many do not.

I used to fly long haul in Vietnam, and one interesting publication we had in the onboard library was a sort of international CFS type document outlining differences from one country to the next (produced by British Airways).

Most icao differences by country were between 1/8th to 1/2 of a page long. No big deal really, minor insignificant stuff that would not change your life even if you did not know about them.

As I recall, the US differences, about 40 pages. And......here goes.....Canada.......is the winner in icao differences, as I recall, more than the US differences, maybe 60 pages total.

So much for that.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

confusedalot wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:25 pm Actually.........most countries do follow icao. But many do not.

I used to fly long haul in Vietnam, and one interesting publication we had in the onboard library was a sort of international CFS type document outlining differences from one country to the next (produced by British Airways).

Most icao differences by country were between 1/8th to 1/2 of a page long. No big deal really, minor insignificant stuff that would not change your life even if you did not know about them.

As I recall, the US differences, about 40 pages. And......here goes.....Canada.......is the winner in icao differences, as I recall, more than the US differences, maybe 60 pages total.

So much for that.
.
The way it works is that all ICAO member countries accept by default to abide by all ICAO standards and recommended practices except when they advise ICAO of a difference. All the non standard regulations are then published in a "Differences" publications that ICAO will provide to it's subscribers.

Chart providers such as Jeppesen source this information from the ICAO "Differences" manual which they then make available to the pilots inside of their own publications.

It's all explained here: https://www.icao.int/safety/MoD/Manual% ... 92015.docx

If you use Jepps, the country differences are listed (this is an old document as an example) :

https://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/avia ... ontrol.pdf

The first part is general ICAO regulations, followed by a section with PAN-Europe differences, followed by individual country differences.

All this information is normally available to all pilots who fly overseas.......
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by complexintentions »

*sigh*

ICAO differences.

EGPWS / no EGPWS.

Radar airspace / non-radar airspace.

Native English speaker / non-native English speaker.

Cleared to descend / not cleared to descend.

All of it interesting. Sort of. I guess?

None of it changes the fact that you have to know where you are. Know your minimum safe altitude. And stay above it.

That's pretty much it. Not that complicated.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by AuxBatOn »

complexintentions wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:51 pm None of it changes the fact that you have to know where you are. Know your minimum safe altitude. And stay above it.

That's pretty much it. Not that complicated.
Really? What about when you are on radar vectors and a controller clears you below a published min IFR altitude? Do you refuse?
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by Cliff Jumper »

complexintentions wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:51 pm *sigh*

ICAO differences.
EGPWS / no EGPWS.
Radar airspace / non-radar airspace.
Native English speaker / non-native English speaker.
Cleared to descend / not cleared to descend.
All of it interesting. Sort of. I guess?
None of it changes the fact that you have to know where you are. Know your minimum safe altitude. And stay above it.

That's pretty much it. Not that complicated.
Agreed, no point to look into it any further. No single other crew on the planet could have made that error. So, why bother trying to understand it. :roll:
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:11 pm
complexintentions wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:51 pm None of it changes the fact that you have to know where you are. Know your minimum safe altitude. And stay above it.

That's pretty much it. Not that complicated.
Really? What about when you are on radar vectors and a controller clears you below a published min IFR altitude? Do you refuse?
You can refer to your Minimum Vectoring Altitude Chart if in doubt.

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Min ... tude_(MVA)
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by AuxBatOn »

I don't have access to this in my cockpit..
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by ahramin »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:55 am I don't have access to this in my cockpit..
Maybe you should. No reason why you can't have it while the rest of us do.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by pelmet »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:11 pm
complexintentions wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:51 pm None of it changes the fact that you have to know where you are. Know your minimum safe altitude. And stay above it.

That's pretty much it. Not that complicated.
Really? What about when you are on radar vectors and a controller clears you below a published min IFR altitude? Do you refuse?
If you are on vectors, it is different. If not on vectors, you are responsible. If you have a terrain map function on your aircraft, use it when in high terrain locations on at least one side. I'd be willing to bet that these guys had it and didn't use it.

Wonder if AC has any specific procedures or recommendations about this. If they don't, they should.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by AuxBatOn »

ahramin wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:22 am
AuxBatOn wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:55 am I don't have access to this in my cockpit..
Maybe you should. No reason why you can't have it while the rest of us do.
It is not an issued DND pub therefore do not have access to it on my EFB or paper copies. If they were critical, they would be directly on approach plates.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by ahramin »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:36 amIt is not an issued DND pub therefore do not have access to it on my EFB or paper copies.
That's what I'm saying. Maybe it's time they were included in the DND publications. I'd want either a functioning EGPWS or those charts when getting radar vectors in mountainous terrain anywhere in Asia or south of the US. If I were in your position, I'd consider making the point to the people in charge of such things.
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Re: Air Canada Rouge EGPWS warning at Huatulco

Post by complexintentions »

Cliff Jumper wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:42 pm Agreed, no point to look into it any further. No single other crew on the planet could have made that error. So, why bother trying to understand it. :roll:
Who said we shouldn't try and understand it? FFS.

I only stated that ultimately, it's up to us - not ATC or the EGPWS or the regulations or someone's language ability or lack thereof - to ensure terrain clearance.

Yes, on vectors that responsibility is delegated to ATC. But 1) that isn't relevant to this specific incident and 2) that doesn't mean you shut your brain off and completely abdicate your responsibility to maintain situational awareness. So, to the smartass who asked "what about on vectors", hell yes if they give me a clearance that doesn't make sense I will absolutely refuse. Wouldn't be the first time I've "self-vectored" myself in places like MNL or BKK on some dark shitty night.

Everyone looking around for blame when it seems like the crew just couldn't read a damn chart.

Let me put it another way. Regardless of the tech, regardless of what ATC clears me to, regardless of what I heard or thought I heard, regardless of what the regs say in Canada or Mexico or Timbuktu: if I know I'm only safe to 10,000 feet, I'm not descending below 10,000 feet.

Not. So. Complicated.
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