Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

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westcoastwonder
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Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by westcoastwonder » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:26 am

I can not find this previous post.
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AirFrame
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by AirFrame » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:39 am

It probably got deleted if it named names and made allegations as to the circumstances of the flight... The post I saw on FB was rather damning.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Maynard » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:28 am

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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by digits_ » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:38 am

I'm wondering what's hanging on the tail there. Looks like type 1 fluid. Did they spray it after the accident to make it look good?

If all the other assumptions/speculations were correct, it's pretty impressive the plane looks like it is still in one piece after a crash like that. Stall/insufficient power on take-off usually results in a nasty fireball while stalling.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:30 pm

They had eight passengers on board, and one of the news reports said they were headed to California. How much fuel would they need to take to get there, and what would their weight be with nearly a full load? Add a little contamination, and it might not fly so well; even if it didn't stall, it might not have been able to maintain altitude.
It sounds an awful lot like that West Wind crash.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by jakester » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:56 pm

TSB collecting the witness accounts today, rumours have it grossly overweight, no de-ice equipment available (garden sprayer variety) and commenced takoff in 3/8's of a mile in heavy snow.......new ops dude first day on the job........fasten your seatbelts and welcome to Scare Air
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by CpnCrunch » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:14 pm

jakester wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:56 pm
no de-ice equipment available (garden sprayer variety) and commenced takoff in 3/8's of a mile in heavy snow.
Do you mean: they didn't even have the garden sprayer? Or did you mean they did have it? I guess a garden sprayer will work fine if they can manage to take off within 10 minutes of starting application.

And it was snow, not heavy snow:

METAR CYXX 232000Z VRB02KT 3/8SM R07/3000V4500FT/D SN BKN006
OVC013 M02/M03 A3034 RMK SN5SF2NS1 /S03/ SLP280=
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:21 pm

CpnCrunch wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:14 pm
I guess a garden sprayer will work fine if they can manage to take off within 10 minutes of starting application.
What's the holdover time for de-icing fluid from a garden sprayer in active precipitation? The holdover times TC issued this year show moderate snow at -3 or above gives six to ten minutes, and that's from a proper de-icing operation; the "Snowfall Intensities as a Function of Prevailing Visibility" table also shows that less than or equal to 3/8 SM vis in daylight below -1 counts as heavy snow, which is shown as "No holdover time guidelines exist". Even if the fluid was heated, which I doubt was the case, I bet it would be diluted before they got the door closed.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by cncpc » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:52 pm

Diadem wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:30 pm
They had eight passengers on board, and one of the news reports said they were headed to California. How much fuel would they need to take to get there, and what would their weight be with nearly a full load? Add a little contamination, and it might not fly so well; even if it didn't stall, it might not have been able to maintain altitude.
It sounds an awful lot like that West Wind crash.
They had to get Customs, so maybe shortstop for customs and fill with cheaper American fuel.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Donald » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:26 pm

Flight plan according to flightaware has them going to San Bernardino, 3hrs 24mins enroute.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/IAX ... /CYXX/KSBD
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by PostmasterGeneral » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:45 pm

So what’s the consensus here? Cowboy pilot took off in heavy snow, stalled, and biffed it at the end of the runway?
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by jakester » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:44 am

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:45 pm
So what’s the consensus here? Cowboy pilot took off in heavy snow, stalled, and biffed it at the end of the runway?
final planned destination was Hawaii.........pretty sure they got cowboys there too
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J31
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by J31 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:26 am

jakester wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:56 pm
TSB collecting the witness accounts today, rumours have it grossly overweight, no de-ice equipment available (garden sprayer variety) and commenced takoff in 3/8's of a mile in heavy snow.......new ops dude first day on the job........fasten your seatbelts and welcome to Scare Air
The B100 has a good useful load so I would not think they would have been overweight.

Here are some ballpark numbers...feel free to disagree! :smt040

Based on Flight Aware: 3 hour 24 minute flight

Empty weight: 7200 lbs
Fuel for the trip. 600 first hour, 500 each hour after: 1850 lbs
Ontario,CA as an alternate: 100 lbs
45 minute reserve: 450 lbs
contingency fuel: 100 lbs

Total fuel required: 2500 lbs
2 crew @ 200: 400 lbs
5 adults @200: 1000 lbs
3 small kids: 200lbs
baggage: 300 lbs

Total weight 11600 lbs
B100 Gross Takeoff 11800 lbs
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by jakester » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:58 pm

new ops dude shopping around for someone to rent them aircraft cause their OC has been suspended, not having much luck apparently, called one operator late last night looking for a job !
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:24 pm

This is from their website:
Island Express Air would like to announce that we have voluntarily suspended all Flight operation including Scheduled and Charter flights while Island Express Air’s pilots, maintenance personnel, and management deal with a precautionary landing by one of our King Air B100 aircraft that occurred on Friday February 23, 2018.

Island Express Air’s Management team is currently working with Transport Canada and the Transport Safety Board to find out the cause of the Incident and conducting an internal investigation to ensure that all Flight Crews, staff and aircraft are safe for flight.

Island Express Air will resume flight operations as soon as we have Transport Canada’s approval. Island Express Air would like to say thank you to all of our valued customers, friends and staff for their understanding during this difficult time.
That's an interesting take on the situation. First, they make it sound like they intentionally landed in a berry patch, and it was a mere incident that barely wrote off the airplane.
Second, they initially state that the suspension is voluntary, but at the end they say that they need TC's approval to resume operations...
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by trey kule » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:32 am

When is TC going to do something about this myth that a garden sprayer is acceptable for deicing operations? All they have to do is read some of the posts on this thread to see that there are pilots out there that believe it is. And, I assume, some of them got a bit more training on de icing then watching the movie that some companies think is adequate.

As to the “learning” lesson from the speculation?
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Zaibatsu » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:02 am

There’s no “myth” about garden sprayers.

Either they get all of the contamination off the critical surfaces in non-ground icing conditions, or they don’t, and you don’t go flying.

And if you’re in ground icing conditions, there’s no holder over times for fluid sprayed from a garden sprayer. You stay on the ground unless you can verify there is no contamination on your critical surfaces.

This is pounded into every flight crew and dispatch member for every operator in Canada every year.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by digits_ » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:10 am

Zaibatsu wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:02 am
And if you’re in ground icing conditions, there’s no holder over times for fluid sprayed from a garden sprayer.
This part is not widely used at all.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by trey kule » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:21 am

“This is pounded into every flight crew and dispatch member for every operator in Canada every year.”

Wow, that is quite the claim. “Every operator in Canada” : :rolleyes:

I have to go from personal experience, but I can say with certainty, your claim is not in fact, correct.

Perhaps instead of looking at the “de icing training program” at non 705 operators , and checking to see if the paperwork has all been satisfied, it would be worthwhile to actually do a practical audit instead of making such comprehensive claims with such certainty. Not that you are coming across as someone who is using TC speak.
All good you know...well, until the accidents kind of prove you wrong.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by montado » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:07 pm

How many times do pilots need to be told no ice/frost adhering to critical surfaces prior to flight? Pretty sure this should only have to be said once, but I have probably heard this statement over a thousand times. Does this count as a pounding, or is anyone else unclear about the regs?
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Victory » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:19 pm

There's nothing wrong with deicing with a garden sprayer, rope, broom, ice scraper, etc. Takeoff can occur if Hold Over times are exceeded too. You just need to inspect the critical surfaces within 5 minutes before takeoff. Have you guys even ever left the GTA?
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:25 pm

Victory wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:19 pm
There's nothing wrong with deicing with a garden sprayer, rope, broom, ice scraper, etc. Takeoff can occur if Hold Over times are exceeded too. You just need to inspect the critical surfaces within 5 minutes before takeoff. Have you guys even ever left the GTA?
Barely; I only have a decade of experience flying in northern Canada, including the Arctic. Can holdover times be exceeded in heavy snow? See my post above where I said that TC doesn't even include holdover times for heavy snow because the fluid will be saturated so quickly. Even if you somehow managed to remove the contamination without heated, pressurized fluid, you can't prevent more contamination without anti-icing fluid. I bet those wings had a couple of inches of wet, heavy, rough snow sitting on them by the time the plane started and taxied out. Who cares if you inspect the critical surfaces five minutes before departure if you have that much snow falling? There will still be contamination on the wings, and you can't just cover your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist because less than five minutes have passed!
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Victory » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:16 pm

So look out the window and see if it is. I swear you need a rule to tell you how to put on your pants these days.
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:30 pm

Victory wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:16 pm
So look out the window and see if it is. I swear you need a rule to tell you how to put on your pants these days.
Yeah, that's exactly the problem: they probably looked out the window and said "It's fine" just before they took off. You seem to be taking the side of the pilots who possibly crashed an airplane because they departed with surface contamination, and your problem is apparently with the regs; they made a bad, unsafe decision in spite of the rules, but you think the problem is the rules themselves? If you don't have rules that say "DON'T TAKE OFF WITH SIX INCHES OF WET SNOW ON THE WINGS!!!!!!" then some people are going to make bad decisions for financial reasons or to get the job done. If you make it a black-and-white issue that departing with contaminated surfaces is against the law, then there shouldn't be any ambiguity in the decision-making process, and any pilot who consciously departs with snow on the wings is knowingly breaking the law. The plane could probably fly with frost on the wings, but there need to be hard limits to prevent slippery slopes where they take off with a little more contamination each day until they crash the airplane!
It's sounding more and more like this was a case of the company owner not wanting to delay a valuable charter because of a little snow, but we saw how that turned out. Obviously making a statement like "look out the window and see if it is" isn't sufficient to prevent people from being stupid. If your ground icing program isn't capable of preventing further accumulation before you depart, DON'T TAKE OFF!
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Victory » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:45 pm

I didn't address this accident at all just those that saying TC needs to do something about Garden Sprayer deicing "myth". They even recommend it:
I can't comment about this aircraft's condition because I didn't see it before takeoff. To me snow is the most benign winter precipitation there is as long as it isn't wet. Once you start introducing deicing fluid to the surface then you've made that a guarantee that it is. I worry that this deicing fluid mania could contribute to an accident one day for this reason. Perhaps it did on this one we don't know.
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