Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

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westcoastwonder
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Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by westcoastwonder »

I can not find this previous post.
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AirFrame
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by AirFrame »

It probably got deleted if it named names and made allegations as to the circumstances of the flight... The post I saw on FB was rather damning.
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Maynard
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Maynard »

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I guess I should write something here.
digits_
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by digits_ »

I'm wondering what's hanging on the tail there. Looks like type 1 fluid. Did they spray it after the accident to make it look good?

If all the other assumptions/speculations were correct, it's pretty impressive the plane looks like it is still in one piece after a crash like that. Stall/insufficient power on take-off usually results in a nasty fireball while stalling.
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Diadem
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem »

They had eight passengers on board, and one of the news reports said they were headed to California. How much fuel would they need to take to get there, and what would their weight be with nearly a full load? Add a little contamination, and it might not fly so well; even if it didn't stall, it might not have been able to maintain altitude.
It sounds an awful lot like that West Wind crash.
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jakester
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by jakester »

TSB collecting the witness accounts today, rumours have it grossly overweight, no de-ice equipment available (garden sprayer variety) and commenced takoff in 3/8's of a mile in heavy snow.......new ops dude first day on the job........fasten your seatbelts and welcome to Scare Air
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by CpnCrunch »

jakester wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:56 pm no de-ice equipment available (garden sprayer variety) and commenced takoff in 3/8's of a mile in heavy snow.
Do you mean: they didn't even have the garden sprayer? Or did you mean they did have it? I guess a garden sprayer will work fine if they can manage to take off within 10 minutes of starting application.

And it was snow, not heavy snow:

METAR CYXX 232000Z VRB02KT 3/8SM R07/3000V4500FT/D SN BKN006
OVC013 M02/M03 A3034 RMK SN5SF2NS1 /S03/ SLP280=
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Diadem
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem »

CpnCrunch wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:14 pmI guess a garden sprayer will work fine if they can manage to take off within 10 minutes of starting application.
What's the holdover time for de-icing fluid from a garden sprayer in active precipitation? The holdover times TC issued this year show moderate snow at -3 or above gives six to ten minutes, and that's from a proper de-icing operation; the "Snowfall Intensities as a Function of Prevailing Visibility" table also shows that less than or equal to 3/8 SM vis in daylight below -1 counts as heavy snow, which is shown as "No holdover time guidelines exist". Even if the fluid was heated, which I doubt was the case, I bet it would be diluted before they got the door closed.
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cncpc
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by cncpc »

Diadem wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:30 pm They had eight passengers on board, and one of the news reports said they were headed to California. How much fuel would they need to take to get there, and what would their weight be with nearly a full load? Add a little contamination, and it might not fly so well; even if it didn't stall, it might not have been able to maintain altitude.
It sounds an awful lot like that West Wind crash.
They had to get Customs, so maybe shortstop for customs and fill with cheaper American fuel.
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Donald
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Donald »

Flight plan according to flightaware has them going to San Bernardino, 3hrs 24mins enroute.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/IAX ... /CYXX/KSBD
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

So what’s the consensus here? Cowboy pilot took off in heavy snow, stalled, and biffed it at the end of the runway?
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jakester
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by jakester »

PostmasterGeneral wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:45 pm So what’s the consensus here? Cowboy pilot took off in heavy snow, stalled, and biffed it at the end of the runway?
final planned destination was Hawaii.........pretty sure they got cowboys there too
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J31
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by J31 »

jakester wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:56 pm TSB collecting the witness accounts today, rumours have it grossly overweight, no de-ice equipment available (garden sprayer variety) and commenced takoff in 3/8's of a mile in heavy snow.......new ops dude first day on the job........fasten your seatbelts and welcome to Scare Air
The B100 has a good useful load so I would not think they would have been overweight.

Here are some ballpark numbers...feel free to disagree! :smt040

Based on Flight Aware: 3 hour 24 minute flight

Empty weight: 7200 lbs
Fuel for the trip. 600 first hour, 500 each hour after: 1850 lbs
Ontario,CA as an alternate: 100 lbs
45 minute reserve: 450 lbs
contingency fuel: 100 lbs

Total fuel required: 2500 lbs
2 crew @ 200: 400 lbs
5 adults @200: 1000 lbs
3 small kids: 200lbs
baggage: 300 lbs

Total weight 11600 lbs
B100 Gross Takeoff 11800 lbs
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jakester
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by jakester »

new ops dude shopping around for someone to rent them aircraft cause their OC has been suspended, not having much luck apparently, called one operator late last night looking for a job !
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Diadem
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Diadem »

This is from their website:
Island Express Air would like to announce that we have voluntarily suspended all Flight operation including Scheduled and Charter flights while Island Express Air’s pilots, maintenance personnel, and management deal with a precautionary landing by one of our King Air B100 aircraft that occurred on Friday February 23, 2018.

Island Express Air’s Management team is currently working with Transport Canada and the Transport Safety Board to find out the cause of the Incident and conducting an internal investigation to ensure that all Flight Crews, staff and aircraft are safe for flight.

Island Express Air will resume flight operations as soon as we have Transport Canada’s approval. Island Express Air would like to say thank you to all of our valued customers, friends and staff for their understanding during this difficult time.
That's an interesting take on the situation. First, they make it sound like they intentionally landed in a berry patch, and it was a mere incident that barely wrote off the airplane.
Second, they initially state that the suspension is voluntary, but at the end they say that they need TC's approval to resume operations...
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trey kule
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by trey kule »

When is TC going to do something about this myth that a garden sprayer is acceptable for deicing operations? All they have to do is read some of the posts on this thread to see that there are pilots out there that believe it is. And, I assume, some of them got a bit more training on de icing then watching the movie that some companies think is adequate.

As to the “learning” lesson from the speculation?
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Zaibatsu
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by Zaibatsu »

There’s no “myth” about garden sprayers.

Either they get all of the contamination off the critical surfaces in non-ground icing conditions, or they don’t, and you don’t go flying.

And if you’re in ground icing conditions, there’s no holder over times for fluid sprayed from a garden sprayer. You stay on the ground unless you can verify there is no contamination on your critical surfaces.

This is pounded into every flight crew and dispatch member for every operator in Canada every year.
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digits_
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by digits_ »

Zaibatsu wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:02 am And if you’re in ground icing conditions, there’s no holder over times for fluid sprayed from a garden sprayer.
This part is not widely used at all.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
trey kule
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by trey kule »

“This is pounded into every flight crew and dispatch member for every operator in Canada every year.”

Wow, that is quite the claim. “Every operator in Canada” : :rolleyes:

I have to go from personal experience, but I can say with certainty, your claim is not in fact, correct.

Perhaps instead of looking at the “de icing training program” at non 705 operators , and checking to see if the paperwork has all been satisfied, it would be worthwhile to actually do a practical audit instead of making such comprehensive claims with such certainty. Not that you are coming across as someone who is using TC speak.
All good you know...well, until the accidents kind of prove you wrong.
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montado
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Re: Abbotsford Commuter Aircraft Mishap, Feb 23, 2018

Post by montado »

How many times do pilots need to be told no ice/frost adhering to critical surfaces prior to flight? Pretty sure this should only have to be said once, but I have probably heard this statement over a thousand times. Does this count as a pounding, or is anyone else unclear about the regs?
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