Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

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pelmet
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Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:29 pm

Amazing.

"C-GJZA, a Bombardier DHC-8-400 operated by Jazz Aviation LP, was conducting flight JZA8585 from Saskatoon/John G. Diefenbaker Intl, SK (CYXE) to Calgary Intl, AB (CYYC) with 4 crew members and 78 passengers on board. Prior to departure from CYXE, the aircraft was de-iced using Type I fluid to remove ice that had accumulated on the previous flight. Shortly after departing CYXE, a passenger reported to a cabin crew member that flames were coming from the left engine tailpipe (Pratt and Whitney Canada PW150A). The cabin crew member observed the flames and notified the flight crew. The flight crew had no fire warnings or indications and did not shutdown the engine. An emergency was declared and the aircraft returned to CYXE with ARFF on standby.

JZA8585 landed on Runway 27, the engines were shutdown, and the flight crew initiated a rapid deplanement of the aircraft. ARFF checked the aircraft with thermal cameras and determined there was no fire, nor excessive heat in the left engine or brakes. The operator's maintenance subsequently inspected the aircraft and found no signs of a defect or source for the flames."
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Victory » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:36 pm

Why is it bad info? What would happen if Type 1 touches a hot exhaust?
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:36 pm

Victory wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:36 pm
Why is it bad info? What would happen if Type 1 touches a hot exhaust?
I suspect nothing. Never seen any flammability warnings or restrictions around engine or APU exhausts. No doubt fluids have been touching exhaust for years and thousands of times.

TKS stuff used in light aircraft is different.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:43 pm

Reminds me of a time I was flying when we had some fumes in the aircraft. It turned out that they likely came from the engine. The word we got from the F/A was...."smoke, really bad in the cabin". Likely never was anything visible. Fumes more likely. Clarification can be helpful. "What colour is the smoke?" is what I should have said.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by rookiepilot » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:19 pm

I'm not getting the point.

2 people observed what looked like flames. Flight crew notified.

There were no warnings, So --

2 choices. One of the flight crew could have left the FD to make their own observation,

OR --

Do exactly what they did.

IF I see flames from anywhere as a commercial pax should I keep my mouth shut then?

I don't get the issue of being better safe than sorry. Isn't that supposed to be correct? :rolleyes:

From my understanding it's not the job of pax or cabin crew to assess information that might affect safety -- only pass on information. it's the flight crews job to assess.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:19 pm
I'm not getting the point.
My only real point is.......to give an example of the quality of information one might get from the cabin and to consider that before assessing.

There is no comment on what the flight deck crew did which seems quite reasonable although your suggestion of a pilot taking a look is an option.

Just be aware of trusting the info you are given, including by a flight crew member in the back. It may be very exaggerated and extremely exaggerated from a passenger.

How many times do we hear endless, repeated OMG's associated with panic mode from some people in certain situations kind of like in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJyJrS_YToo
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Heliian » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:46 am

If an experienced FA says that there are flames out the pipe, then there are probably flames out the pipe.

If the pilot wanted to, he could have checked himself but as they are a crew working together then he had no reason to believe that the information was bad.

Any flames out the pipe is not good, regardless of exaggeration.

Why are you all bunched up about this?
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by AirFrame » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:32 am

pelmet wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm
My only real point is.......to give an example of the quality of information one might get from the cabin and to consider that before assessing.
I would hope that when i'm flying commercially (in the back) that my pilot would take anything an FA passed on at face value. Even if the FA is wrong, I don't want to be on the flight when the FA was right and the pilot said "well, these instruments say you're wrong, so we'll ignore you".
...your suggestion of a pilot taking a look is an option.
This would seem to make the most sense but is that possible in this age of locked cabin doors?
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:13 am

We had a case of an evacuation due to smoke in the cabin. The smoke turned out to be muffins in the oven.

My point once again, just like the mysterious flames and personal example I had with some A/C fumes being called heavy smoke, be cautious of the info you are given by cabin crew.

Some may be hurt if I say this but, there is the occasional ‘ditz’ out there with little aviation experience aside from basic F/A training and cabin service.

You might want to confirm things if not backed up by a warning.

There is an difference between confirming and ignoring. Trust but verify was a famous quote.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Heliian » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:07 am

Smoke and fire will kill everyone on board really quick, you don't have a lot of time to make a decision and get down safe.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:17 am

pelmet wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:13 am

You might want to confirm things if not backed up by a warning.

There is an difference between confirming and ignoring.
Then why didn't they confirm it?
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Broken Slinky » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:35 am

I'm of the opinion that if someone said that they saw fire, I'm getting the bird on the ground ASAP. I'm not taking a stroll through the cabin to verify it. Even if it turned out to be the strobes or sun lighting up the deicing fluid I'd prefer to be back on terra firma.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by 7ECA » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:39 pm

pelmet wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:13 am
Some may be hurt if I say this but, there is the occasional ‘ditz’ out there with little aviation experience aside from basic F/A training and cabin service.
I didn't realize that "aviation experience" was necessary to recognize smoke or fire. Shame on me... :roll:
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by rookiepilot » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:04 pm

pelmet wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:19 pm
I'm not getting the point.


How many times do we hear endless, repeated OMG's associated with panic mode from some people in certain situations kind of like in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJyJrS_YToo
I'm not getting how whatever pax panic is posted on the video -- has any relation to 2 people independently seeing flames out an engine and reporting that to the Captain -- oh never mind--
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by confusedalot » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:25 pm

It has now become a fact of life that you have react to anything that any passenger or back end crew member says.

I find the whole situation rather odd, never heard of such a thing such as flames out of the tailpipe in cruise (not to be confused with a tailpipe fire on startup) after flying 3500 hours in a dash 8, but whatever, the people saw what they saw, and you as the person sitting in the pointy end must come up with the most safe course of action. And keep your butt out of the court system. That is our litigious society.

Have had people raising the alarm for the sound of hydraulic pumps operating, seeing water flow outside because of condensation and precipitation, thinking it was a fuel leak, tires that were worn (dash 8, where passengers can see them), a person who witnessed a mechanic accessing a sterile jetway area and thought he was a terrorist, and on and on and on.......

We live in a paranoid world.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:38 pm

confusedalot wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:25 pm


Have had people raising the alarm for the sound of hydraulic pumps operating, seeing water flow outside because of condensation and precipitation, thinking it was a fuel leak, tires that were worn (dash 8, where passengers can see them), a person who witnessed a mechanic accessing a sterile jetway area and thought he was a terrorist, and on and on and on.......

We live in a paranoid world.
Exactly right. And there is no shortage of bad info out there. And judging from the responses that I have seen on this thread, it is inevitable that we will see an incident at some point where the info was taken at face value and in the desire to supposedly take the supposedly safest course of action, ie....getting on the ground as fast as possible, someone is going to crash off the end of a slippery short runway over their max landing weight.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Maynard » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:38 am

Heliian wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:46 am


Why are you all bunched up about this?
Haven't you noticed a trend with Pelmets daily postings?? Starting to look like a new nickynick or PDW...
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:32 pm

Maynard wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:38 am
Heliian wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:46 am


Why are you all bunched up about this?
Haven't you noticed a trend with Pelmets daily postings?? Starting to look like a new nickynick or PDW...
Anything useful to add. I suppose like the last thread you commented on, the answer is no. Have you ever even posted anything useful?

But perhaps others can comment if my posting here is providing more info than Maynard or would you prefer his kind of postings?

You can look through this thread from last week as a typical example of someone who adds nothing but snide comments. If that is what people prefer, let me know. I'm just trying to bring up some interesting things to think about.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=122915&p=1031058#p1031058

What do others out there think?
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Last edited by pelmet on Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by hamstandard » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:51 am

[quote=pelmet post_id=1033718 time=1521160332 user_id=4697]
[quote=Maynard post_id=1033649 time=1521131913 user_id=20677]
[quote=Heliian post_id=1033489 time=1521031587 user_id=25449]


Why are you all bunched up about this?
[/quote]

Haven't you noticed a trend with Pelmets daily postings?? Starting to look like a new nickynick or PDW...
[/quote]

Anything useful to add. I suppose like the last thread you commented on, the answer is no. Have you ever even posted anything useful?

But perhaps others can comment if my posting here is providing more info than Maynard or would you prefer his kind of postings?

You can look through this thread from last week as a typical example of someone who adds nothing but snide comments. If that is what people prefer, let me know. I'm just trying to bring up some interesting things to think about.

What do others out there think?
[/quote]

Maynard sound like one of those complete dorks that we unfortunately all run into sometimes. Adds nothing with his posts and just make stupid comments. What a complete dipshit. Go somewhere else unless you have something to add to the thread. And hopefully the mods can delete the last three posts so we can get back on something more important, like the subject of the thread.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Aviatard » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:47 am

hamstandard wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:51 am
Go somewhere else unless you have something to add to the thread. And hopefully the mods can delete the last three posts so we can get back on something more important, like the subject of the thread.
The irony of this post made me giggle. I realize I've added nothing to this thread, though.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Maynard » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:12 am

Sure, I'll stop being a dick. Pelmet starts a thread "..bad info pilots can be given" and then condescend them by stating "Amazing." And lastly quote the CADORs. The pilots were told that there were flames coming out the tailpipe. Not by just a passenger, but also a "Crew member". They declared an emergency and returned. Would it have been amazing if they continued on and had to shut down in flight and land at destination? This thread doesn't benefit anyone.....the only discussion its creating is the blame on pilots. I asked in your last thread if/who you fly for, and you didn't answer then, so I still wonder if you just look at CADORS everyday and judge others, or if you have experience in a commercial operation. I'll tell you a story about tailpipes. I was flying home on the airline I worked for, and noticed sparks intermittently coming from the tailpipe on one of the engines. I told the crew, they said all the gauges were normal, and carried on. They snagged it when we landed, and took another airplane. The next day the plane went out and on the 3rd leg, they had an engine failure. One of the 2nd stage turbine blades had come loose and was rubbing until it finally broke free and took out the 3rd stage turbine. Anyways I won't get in the way of the stellar discussion that's ongoing....

Also a quick search of your posts....
hamstandard wrote:
Have to admit, you do sound like a real dipsh!t.
Ah? Ok, thank you for your contribution to this thread as well?
You love calling people dipshits, get involved with almost every one of Pelmets threads (Which others also find as just stirring the pot), and lastly also add NOTHING to the conversation. Who's the real Dipsh!t?
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:54 pm

Maynard wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:12 am
Sure, I'll stop being a dick. Pelmet starts a thread "..bad info pilots can be given" and then condescend them by stating "Amazing." And lastly quote the CADORs. The pilots were told that there were flames coming out the tailpipe. Not by just a passenger, but also a "Crew member". They declared an emergency and returned. Would it have been amazing if they continued on and had to shut down in flight and land at destination? This thread doesn't benefit anyone.....the only discussion its creating is the blame on pilots. I asked in your last thread if/who you fly for, and you didn't answer then, so I still wonder if you just look at CADORS everyday and judge others, or if you have experience in a commercial operation. I'll tell you a story about tailpipes. I was flying home on the airline I worked for, and noticed sparks intermittently coming from the tailpipe on one of the engines. I told the crew, they said all the gauges were normal, and carried on. They snagged it when we landed, and took another airplane. The next day the plane went out and on the 3rd leg, they had an engine failure. One of the 2nd stage turbine blades had come loose and was rubbing until it finally broke free and took out the 3rd stage turbine. Anyways I won't get in the way of the stellar discussion that's ongoing....
The problem with you Maynard, is that as soon as you finally try to add to a thread, you prove how lacking in basic knowledge you are(and perhaps should just go back to your completely useless posts).

It is obvious that you don't have the capability to understand basic written information. Yes I said "Amazing" but what is obvious to most others is that this comment is about the bad info from the back(ie. a report of an engine fire when there is no fire), not about the unfortunate pilots who received the bad information. Yet you somehow come to a conclusion that I am condemning the pilots, even after I wrote this as well....
pelmet wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm
My only real point is.......to give an example of the quality of information one might get from the cabin and to consider that before assessing.

There is no comment on what the flight deck crew did which seems quite reasonable although your suggestion of a pilot taking a look is an option.

Just be aware of trusting the info you are given, including by a flight crew member in the back. It may be very exaggerated and extremely exaggerated from a passenger.
You appear to be unable to comprehend, despite what I wrote that I am criticizing those in the back of the aircraft for what obviously was bad info. Instead you only seem to be able to conclude that I am blaming the pilots when I specifically give an example of bad information being given to pilots as mentioned in the thread title and then say what the pilots did was reasonable. Yes, I did subsequently agree with someone else that one of the pilots could have taken a look for themselves and perhaps one might want to consider the pros and cons of doing so and the potential serious consequences of not doing so as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

And yes, I read the Cadors almost every day because they are emailed to me almost every day. Somehow, I am supposed to tell you who I work for yet I don't see you telling me the name of your employer and I don't really care to know who it is as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion(although you are not the first to demand this info for some strange reason, which one has to wonder what that might be).

As for your story about sparks from an engine and the end result of that situation, I would like to think that most of the rest of us can understand that your experience and the fact that others in the past have experienced seeing actual failures has nothing to do with the reality that.........bad information sometimes gets passed on to pilots. From cabin crew, from ATC, from mechanics, and from other pilots. Just because good information sometimes and quite likely usually gets passed along to pilots doesn't change the former.

This thread is was started in a forum specifically dedicated to incidents and learning from them. Unlike what you say about it benefitting no one, aside from yourself, I believe there is a benefit from this as it at least asks the question, like in any incident, is there anything else that could be done in a situation like this where there is an unverified report of a potentially fatal problem. Especially when the expected response to an event such as an engine fire is to land ASAP, which could be in a remote location in the Pacific or a very marginal airport somewhere else.

I suppose we also get to learn other things about unfortunate traits in some people, such as we see responses from individuals like you.....misinterpreting basic written information and then acting the way you do making false accusations. Now if you care to actually discuss and disagree on what I actually said with other credible alternatives, then that's fine.


Until then, my recommendation for you is to read something several times in order to actually understand it and then comment. See...you can get good info on this thread.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by Transition9er2 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:39 pm

Talked with some buddy’s about this and the word is the crew had both FA’s confirm the fire and on the second confirmation of visual fire they called the mayday and started back to Saskatoon. Once they landed the fire trucks told the crew both brakes were smoking and that’s when the crew called for the deplanemt. Wheels up to wheels down was something like 20 mins so the decision to land was made quickly. I don’t think a pilot leaving the flight deck would’ve been a good idea to confirm the fire a 3rd time... not to mention it’s a fire, why would the guys responsible for getting everyone on the ground leave the cockpit... it’s a fire!

Doesn’t make sense that deice fluid would ignite, but from the report I read online excessive fluid was sprayed and caught up in the exhaust pipe and while under takeoff power it ignited.

Thought I’d add some info to the convo and 2 cents.
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Wed May 02, 2018 5:55 am

Transition9er2 wrote:
Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:39 pm
Talked with some buddy’s about this and the word is the crew had both FA’s confirm the fire and on the second confirmation of visual fire they called the mayday and started back to Saskatoon. Once they landed the fire trucks told the crew both brakes were smoking and that’s when the crew called for the deplanemt. Wheels up to wheels down was something like 20 mins so the decision to land was made quickly. I don’t think a pilot leaving the flight deck would’ve been a good idea to confirm the fire a 3rd time... not to mention it’s a fire, why would the guys responsible for getting everyone on the ground leave the cockpit... it’s a fire!

Doesn’t make sense that deice fluid would ignite, but from the report I read online excessive fluid was sprayed and caught up in the exhaust pipe and while under takeoff power it ignited.
Thanks for the help. I am not a fire expert but it would seem strange to have a fire but that it left no evidence to be found by maintenance after the fact. I suppose the exception might be something out the tailpipe such as during a start. Maybe there are other cases and would be interested to hear about them. Maybe the excess fluid was spaying back and was interpreted as smoke. People sometimes say..."where there's smoke, there's fire".
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Re: Another example of the bad info pilots can be given

Post by pelmet » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:02 pm

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