Accurate enough. Loss of fuel pressure due to fuel starvation looks awfully like a fuel pump failure. Forgot to transfer back to the main tanks? Misidentified emptying the aux tanks as a fuel pump failure and shut them both down? Mere speculation.
Navajo lands on the street in yyc
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Agree, it's a definitely a possibililty ("mere speculation") that ample supply remains in there, s o m e w h e r e .
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
You must keep the faith that the experts in T.C. and the TSB will find it if it is there, remember it is only a few days since it happened and there are so many places that fuel could be they have not had sufficient time to find it yet.Agree, it's a definitely a possibililty ("mere speculation") that ample supply remains in there, s o m e w h e r e .
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
I cannot tell from the pictures. Are the fuel caps all on?
That could explain a big fuel loss
Not that they could not have been put on afterwards...
That could explain a big fuel loss
Not that they could not have been put on afterwards...
Accident speculation:
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
I think they left it somewhere in Medicine Hat.C.W.E. wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:54 pmYou must keep the faith that the experts in T.C. and the TSB will find it if it is there, remember it is only a few days since it happened and there are so many places that fuel could be they have not had sufficient time to find it yet.Agree, it's a definitely a possibililty ("mere speculation") that ample supply remains in there, s o m e w h e r e .
If it did run out of gas, how out of the Situational Awareness loop are you that you press on and attempt to make it over a populated city rather than put it down in a field, or one of the small strips along the way before both quit? Just a thought.
New nickname is "The Super T Glider."
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
There is a picture in one of the news articles with the TSB taking a photo of the gas cap and filler opening. The tab on the cap was up so it's a possibility.
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Although, it's not impossible that someone took a quick look (at any time after that landing) just to check how dry, and not necessarily a pilot.
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
There's another photo from the Herald that shows the TSB opening up the cap.
The chances of 2 independent systems failing at the exact time are very slim. Most common causes are fuel starvation, or fuel contamination i.e. jet fuel. Both unacceptable mistakes you can eliminate through discipline.
I also highly doubt all 4 fuel pumps would fail at the same time.
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
The lack of information on something as simple as determining if this airplane ran out of fuel is typical of aviation in Canada.
If you ignore these accidents the public will soon forget and there will be no real effort made to protect the paying public from exposure to such preventable accidents.
That crew were just plain lucky no one was killed.
If they ran out of fuel they should be charged with negligent operation of an airplane carrying paying passengers at the very least....and T.C. should be included in the charge for failure to ensure the safety of the flying public..
If you ignore these accidents the public will soon forget and there will be no real effort made to protect the paying public from exposure to such preventable accidents.
That crew were just plain lucky no one was killed.
If they ran out of fuel they should be charged with negligent operation of an airplane carrying paying passengers at the very least....and T.C. should be included in the charge for failure to ensure the safety of the flying public..
Last edited by C.W.E. on Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.C.W.E. wrote: ↑Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:29 pm The lack of information on something as simple as determining if this airplane ran out of fuel is typical of aviation in Canada.
If you ignore these accidents the public will soon forget and there will be no real effort made to protect the paying public from exposure to such preventable accidents.
That crew were just plain lucky no one was killed.
They should be charged with negligent operation of an airplane carrying paying passengers at the very least....and T.C. should be included in the charge for failure to ensure the safety of the flying public..
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
I clearly said " If they ran out of fuel. "Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel, but let's charge the crew anyway! At least it will be quick.
Do you disagree they should be charged and just let it go as another slight mistake?
I often wonder about some of the thought processes of posters here on these forums.
How long do you think it should take to determine if that machine was out of fuel digits?
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Who says that they haven’t determined the fuel status. They being the investigation authority ie TSB
"I'd rather have it and not need than to need it and not have it" Capt. Augustus McCrae.
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Digits did.Who says that they haven’t determined the fuel status.
Yeah! It hasn't been determined if it ran out of fuel,
The TSB?They being the investigation authority ie TSB
They take forever to release any findings but maybe eventually they will share it with the public.
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Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Just heard through the rumour mill that Integra Air (Bar XH) in Medicine Hat just closed their doors yesterday to all avgas sales due to internal issues (I think related to a change in ownership?). They are the only supplier that does public sales in CYXH. Super T has their own bowser for Avgas for their own use, though it's not huge. I'm not sure how often they have to refill it or who their supplier is. I haven't filled up in the last week in Medicine Hat so I'm not sure if there were any issues with fuel availability prior to this incident.Blue Yonder wrote: ↑Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:06 am It's been a while since this NOTAM was issued but, make me wonder if the AVGAS issue played a hand here.
CYHQ
180001 CYHQ NATIONAL
CYHQ POTENTIAL QUALITY ISSUE OF FUEL 100LL (JET A NOT AFFECTED)
DISTRIBUTED BY IMPERIAL OIL (EXTENT UNKNOWN)
VERIFY LOCALLY FOR AVBL
1802160008 TIL APRX 1802231800
Edit: There's no NOTAM about 100LL availability so the rumour could be BS... take with salt.
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." -George Bernard Shaw
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
No you didn't. You changed your post after I quoted you to add that. My post has your original post quoted in it.
A pretty pathetic way to try and win an argument.
Me tooI often wonder about some of the thought processes of posters here on these forums.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Digits:
If there was legal fuel in that airplane even for a VFR flight how could it run out of fuel?
If it was a broken fuel line there would be evidence such as fuel stain and a broken line.
It only takes a few minutes to determine that, unless of course the airplane was moved before the authorities saw it.
Both engines are feathered.... any idea why?
If there was legal fuel in that airplane even for a VFR flight how could it run out of fuel?
If it was a broken fuel line there would be evidence such as fuel stain and a broken line.
It only takes a few minutes to determine that, unless of course the airplane was moved before the authorities saw it.
Both engines are feathered.... any idea why?
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
Would you rather they make hasty conclusions to satisfy your thirst for blood or take the time to investigate and exclude any other possible (note I did not say probable) failure mechanisms before making conclusions that may destroy a company or an individual?
Last edited by AuxBatOn on Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Going for the deck at corner
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
- Broken fuel line (takes time to determine that with certainty, did it happen before, during or after flight?)C.W.E. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:17 pm Digits:
If there was legal fuel in that airplane even for a VFR flight how could it run out of fuel?
If it was a broken fuel line there would be evidence such as fuel stain and a broken line.
It only takes a few minutes to determine that, unless of course the airplane was moved before the authorities saw it.
Both engines are feathered.... any idea why?
- Fuel might have leaked out of plane during the crash
- Faulty fuel truck meter
- Faulty airplane fuel indicator
- Leak in tanks
- Obstruction in tanks or vent which causes reduction in fuel volume in bladder tanks
- Broken fuel selector(s)
- Firewall shut off valves malfunctioning
- Crew mishandling switches (eg both cross feeding from empty tank)
- Crew error while fueling up
And I am sure there are many more possible options that I didn't think of here.
They probably feathered the engines because they both failed, which doesn't give us a lot of extra info, as they shouldn't have crashed in the first place if at least one engine was operating.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Navajo lands on the street in yyc
A difficult question indeed......AuxBat
Based on what I have read here,maybe we could seek a compromise. We could jump to a quick conclusion based on wild speculation, and rally the villagers to a lynch mob.
Then, when the facts do come out, if we are wrong...well who really cares? The fun is over and everyone is off to speculate on whatever the next accident is all about.. .
Now full caveat...This will all be done respectfully, and the aim is only to learn from it, because, you know, a navajo has never crashed before. And there is absolutely nothing to be learned from accidents of more than 6 months in the past...where you got the idea anyone should wait for the facts is beyond me..experts here do not need facts to come to conclusions.
Or discuss possabilities because waiting for the facts is just so darn hard...
Based on what I have read here,maybe we could seek a compromise. We could jump to a quick conclusion based on wild speculation, and rally the villagers to a lynch mob.
Then, when the facts do come out, if we are wrong...well who really cares? The fun is over and everyone is off to speculate on whatever the next accident is all about.. .
Now full caveat...This will all be done respectfully, and the aim is only to learn from it, because, you know, a navajo has never crashed before. And there is absolutely nothing to be learned from accidents of more than 6 months in the past...where you got the idea anyone should wait for the facts is beyond me..experts here do not need facts to come to conclusions.
Or discuss possabilities because waiting for the facts is just so darn hard...
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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