C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1925
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by AirFrame » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:01 am

---------- ADS -----------
  

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:38 pm

Stunning absolutely stunning.
---------- ADS -----------
  

cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1330
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by cncpc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:00 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:38 pm
Stunning absolutely stunning.
Control locks in, Chuck? Or C of G way out?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.

User avatar
JasonE
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 535
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by JasonE » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:25 pm

Direct link to youtube video of crash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq_CgAiuk7s
---------- ADS -----------
  
"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:59 pm

Control locks in, Chuck? Or C of G way out?
It could have been either one or just plain unbelievable poor airplane handling.

However if the locks were in or the C of G was way out they still did not have a clue about what they were doing.

Remember there are two pilots required for the DC3 and there is no reason I can think of to do what they did.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
FlyGy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 527
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by FlyGy » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:07 pm

Guy shooting the video musta saw something. He recognised an issue pretty early in the roll.
---------- ADS -----------
  

lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1146
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by lownslow » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:54 pm

FlyGy wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:07 pm
Guy shooting the video musta saw something. He recognised an issue pretty early in the roll.
While the control surfaces look nearly stationary in the video, there’s supposedly another video somewhere from a different angle where the rudder is moving from stop to stop and the plane is all over the runway. I suspect that’s what they guy filming is reacting to even though his footage doesn’t really show it.
---------- ADS -----------
  

TG
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1657
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by TG » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:11 pm

Initially I thought of them loosing power on one engine in a bad spot the way they were swerving (up into the grass it seems)
Being busy staying centered it looks like they forgot to properly raise their tail past 40/50kts
Or left the elevator locks on.

Doing so would put you “airborne” in a pretty nasty position, especially while kicking your rudder.

Can’t be that, it is basic stuff..
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1925
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by AirFrame » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:13 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:38 pm
Stunning absolutely stunning
I know, right? I mean, why wouldn't you turn the phone horizontally to record that?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
AirFrame
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1925
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by AirFrame » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:15 am

FlyGy wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:07 pm
Guy shooting the video musta saw something. He recognised an issue pretty early in the roll.
If you watch it a few times you can see the plane yaws significantly before the guy makes his first "oh shit" comment, but it's hard to see because it's almost directly side-on at that point. The rudder does go hard over to one side when it happens though.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Victory
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Victory » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:38 am

The DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certificate. If it is modified with different engines it can become a two crew machine but good luck getting a foreign aviation authority to recognize it as multi-crew time if you need it for a job or license conversion.
---------- ADS -----------
  

switchflicker
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:25 am

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by switchflicker » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:46 am

Perhaps Victory is talking about a DHC-3 which is indeed a single pilot A/C and if it has enough mods can require two pilots under certain conditions.
---------- ADS -----------
  
"I'd rather have it and not need than to need it and not have it" Capt. Augustus McCrae.

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:19 am

T
he DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certificate. If it is modified with different engines it can become a two crew machine
Victory when you fly the DC3 by yourself do you sit in the right hand seat so it is easier to use the flaps?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2901
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:06 am

The DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certificate.
Hmmm, type certificate A-699 does not seem to mention minimum crew. Canadian standard 421, Appendix A does though, and specifies the DC-3 as a two crew aircraft. For my limited time flying one, I would not want to be doing it solo!
---------- ADS -----------
  

pelmet
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3982
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by pelmet » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:11 am

Investigators will look into many aspects of this flight including the flight controls.

They may take note of DC-3 control locks. For instance, this picture here shows how the external elevator and rudder control locks are separate and in what position the elevators are held when locked.......

https://www.google.com/search?q=dc-3&so ... RPVBfrrFGM:

As well, the investigators will likely note what the elevator position is when the elevator control lock is not installed as seen here....

https://www.google.com/search?q=dc-3&so ... 4VLmjmurUM:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 240%29.jpg

Then they might look at the empennage of the accident DC-3 which can be seen in this picture......

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 50#p605245

...and look at the video again for explanation as to why the aircraft's tail did not come up on departure which one would think would require nose-down elevator input.

Depending on aircraft type, there can be more than one reason for an elevator to become blocked/jammed including exterior locks or some sort of internal malfunction or foreign object creating the blockage including something in the cockpit intentionally placed to hold the elevators in a certain position and then being forgotten as has happened on more than one C-130 to a malfuction in the internal gust lock mechanism as has happened on the HS-748 leading to the procedure to check the elevator during the takeoff roll. A DC-8 was even brought down in New York long ago due to a piece of asphalt blocking the controls.

The investigators will consider all these possibilities and others such as pilot technique.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19861004-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20151002-2
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19700908-1
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19790731-0

Of course we do not know precisely what happened in this accident and there may be an unrelated cause but......prior to getting into any smaller aircraft prior to engine start, I do a final check. As I have been flying various different types and it may have been several months between flights on a particular type, it is a generic check of which not all items will necessarily be applicable......Fuel caps on, oil cap on, no chocks, no tiedowns, no towbar, no pitot cover, baggage doors secure, no external locks, no intake plugs.

A friend of mine had an accident where he said that his controls became blocked on the takeoff roll and could not lower the nose once airborne. After that, I added an item to my second final check prior to takeoff which is done after completing the checklist to make sure things are properly set. Flaps, trim, mixture, boost pump, primer, mags. and the added item of just moving the elevator once again to ensure that it is free just in case, like my friend or the DC-8 in New York, somehow a piece of FOD got stuck in the elevator system(or the tail somehow hit something).
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by pelmet on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:34 am

I never started the take off roll without checking full and free movement of controls.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Blakey
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 950
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:33 pm
Location: Ontario

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Blakey » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:44 am

Forgive my ignorance of DC-3 Ops but is a flapless takeoff normal?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you!

User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2901
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:53 am

DC-3 rudders will swing easily in the wind, as they are connected only to the pedals. Thus, external rudder locks are very commonly used. The elevator locks tend to be removed with the rudder lock. Yes, a careless or distracted crew could forget to remove the control locks. If they forgot the control locks, and passed through the several checklist items about control locks and controls without checking, well then, human error. In theory, in a DC-3, yes, you could get to the runway, and begin your takeoff roll with any or all of the controls still externally locked. The DC-3 does not required vigorous nose down to get the tail up on takeoff, it comes up fairly well on it's own. Now if the pilot is trying to force the aircraft into the air, the tail is not going to come up on it's own. Attempting to force the aircraft into the air could result in liftoff below a safe flying speed, a wing drop in the stall, and perhaps errant application of aileron to lift a wing, which would just worsen things. The end result would be a wing drop, and dragging that wingtip into the ground while rolling and yawing out of control.
---------- ADS -----------
  

GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1778
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by GyvAir » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:55 pm

I've seen two DC3s flown single pilot in Canada. One Canadian registered and one N registered. Both flown by pilots sporting a bit of a renegade cowboy persona about them.
pelmet wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:11 am
Then they might look at the empennage of the accident DC-3 which can be seen in this picture......

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 50#p605245
By the time that photo was taken, the right elevator and stab tips were resting on the ground, holding the elevators up. In this earlier photo the elevators appear to be hanging full down:
Image

Going frame by frame through the video posted earlier, the rudder can be clearly seen moving what could be lock to lock. More subtle - and maybe I'm mistaken - but I think the ailerons can be seen moving as expected for the attitude changes while the aircraft is airborne. Pretty hard to tell with the elevators, too.. possibly pulled up around 25-26 seconds into the video.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18920
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:00 pm

Forgive my ignorance of DC-3 Ops but is a flapless takeoff normal?
Yes.
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

nbinont
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 136
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:54 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by nbinont » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:03 pm

Thankfully everyone made it out alive. Though it is a tragic loss of a good aircraft. I've visited the CAF squadron at Burnet a number of times and they are a good group. Their C-47 appeared to be very well maintained from what I saw and just had "new" engines a couple years back. Sad to see her go up in flames.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Victory
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Victory » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:54 pm

PilotDAR wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:06 am
The DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certificate.
Hmmm, type certificate A-699 does not seem to mention minimum crew. Canadian standard 421, Appendix A does though, and specifies the DC-3 as a two crew aircraft. For my limited time flying one, I would not want to be doing it solo!
Unfortunately nobody cares about what TC says outside of Canada. It's the same with the Beech 1900. TC might say two crew but its a single pilot airplane from the FAA so good luck claiming it as multi-crew time for a job requirement or license conversion outside of Canada.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18920
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:10 pm

How many DC3's are operated single pilot Victory?

I have done DC3 training and type ratings in several different countries and never saw one operated single pilot.

Also which seat do you sit in when flying it solo?
---------- ADS -----------
  
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.

C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1037
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:03 pm

Yes, the DC3 can be flown with one pilot if it meets certain criteria, however there are very few of them being flown single pilot.

Most DC3's require two pilots with DC3 type ratings.

For sure the R4D-8 does.

The R4D-8 is a real performer compared to the standard DC3 and you sit even higher in it.

The only drawback I found between the R4D-8 and the standard three was cross wind capability. The R4D-8 does not have the rudder effectiveness of a standard 3 so it will not handle as much cross wind when landing.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Antique Pilot
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 505
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:52 pm

Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Antique Pilot » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:28 pm

cncpc wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:00 pm
C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:38 pm
Stunning absolutely stunning.
Control locks in, Chuck? Or C of G way out?
On June 23, 1957 a PWA DC-3 took off from the Port Hardy BC airport. They got airborne but crashed in the attempt to do a circuit and land. 12 desceased. Elevator control locks were in. DOT accident report RG12, Vol 1200, File 5002-526.

AP
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”