C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

[C.W.E.]

Yup...

That is the way I was taught and did it.

Got my DC3 type rating at Austin Airways in 1968 and that was the way we were taught.

[cncpc]

#19 Post by GyvAir » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:55 pm

I've seen two DC3s flown single pilot in Canada. One Canadian registered and one N registered. Both flown by pilots sporting a bit of a renegade cowboy persona about them.

Gyvair,

Could you tell us about the Canadian registered one.

Thanks

There was a DC-3 at Prince George back in the early 80's that was being flown single pilot.

[C.W.E.]

Why would you want to fly a DC3 single pilot?

[cncpc]

Why would you want to fly a DC3 single pilot?

I don't know, .. I just pointed out that there was one there being flown single pilot. Or at least single qualified pilot.

The man was killed in a crash of that aircraft a few years later. Another life was lost as well.

[Siddley Hawker]

The company I flew DC-3's for back when the dinosaurs roamed the range had external control locks that defied anyone to attempt takeoff with them installed. The elevators were locked full down, the rudder at full left deflection and the ailerons at full left aileron. Still didn't trust you though, the last three items on the line-up check were: Controls................Free/Full Travel, Friction Lock...............On, Tailwheel Lock............Engaged.

[C.W.E.]

You forgot the most important check Siddley.

Brain engaged.

[Siddley Hawker]

You forgot the most important check Siddley.

Brain engaged.

Heh heh.

I once did an IFR renewal all by myself, with just the DOT inspector. At the time I was a co-pilot, but had had my left seat checkout, so just the two of us buggered off and did the ride. Does that qualify as single pilot?

[C.W.E.]

I once did an IFR renewal all by myself, with just the DOT inspector. At the time I was a co-pilot, but had had my left seat checkout, so just the two of us buggered off and did the ride. Does that qualify as single pilot?

Ahhh.. those were the days when the Government inspectors were just ordinary guys who used common sense when doing check rides and were teachers not policy drones.

I once did a check ride with Jim Bell the chief pilot at Austin Airways on the DC3 and just after lift off he failed the right engine with the mixture control...which broke off and he calmly put it in his shirt pocket and watched me do a quick circuit and land.

Of course we had to get towed back to the ramp but he passed me on the check ride and we all went to the Empire Hotel and had a good laugh and some beers.

[Jean-Pierre]

I seen a DC-3 fly itself in 1936. I tell you it was the damnedest thing.

[boeing767300]

Report from one of the passengers on Bluebonnet Belle,

New status in life - airplane crash survivor. Not one you want. Tina and I were on the flight when the C-47 Bluebonnet Belle crashed on takeoff Sat, 7/21 at Burnet, Tx. There were 13 of us on board, including the crew, and we all made it out. Several suffered burns and 3 of those were admitted to burn units and 3 others, including Tina, were treated and released. As of this evening, only 1 is still under burn care and he will completely recover after a few more weeks of burn care. Tina has blisters that are requiring wound care, but she is in no pain aside from a bruised rib. Most of the burn victims were burned exiting the airplane. Fuel had spilled all over the ground and had splashed over the top of the plane. The 1st two to open the aft door were burned the worst. Some had to jump through the fire to get out. You can find videos and pictures of the crash and the aftermath all over the internet - search for C-47 crash. As Operations Officer for the Highland Lakes squadron, this flight was operated under my authority, which means I have spent the last 3 days helping gather facts and documents to share with the NTSB, the FAA and CAF. It's encouraging to see these professionals working on this and we are especially grateful for the support and assistance from Jim Lasche and Buddy Cooksey from CAF HQ! Most of us lost our cell phones, computers, tablets, clothes, etc, in the fire, so it has been hard to stay in contact. Plane crashes, esp those caught on video - seem to draw incredible speculation and this one is no exception. The experts, the NTSB will take months or even years analyzing the facts of this accident to determine what happened, but many people seem to think they can watch a grainy video and know all sorts of things. As a semi-insider in this thing, there are some things I can say with certainty. The engines were operating just fine - very smooth, appearing to make good power. The CG was near the center of the envelope. The gross weight at takeoff was slightly under our self-imposed limit of 25,200 lbs, which is more than 1000 lbs less than the normal max gross weight for this model of C-47. The gust locks had been removed and the controls were operating freely. The tailwheel was properly locked at the start of the takeoff run. So all you speculators.....just STFU! The outpouring of sympathy and remorse from all of our friends and family, the CAF community, the larger Warbird community, Daks over Normany, D-Day Squadron has been heartening and very appreciated. Highland Lakes Squadron has been caring for Bluebonnet Belle since 2001 and we are all heart-broken at her loss. But we are blessed to be alive and have only recoverable injuries. Our Bluebonnet Airshow is still on for Sept 8th and it will be a great show! Thanks to everyone for the concern, wishes and prayers! We are fine!”

[C.W.E.]

. So all you speculators.....just STFU!

That is real class.

[Bacunayagua]

Ahhh.. those were the days when the Government inspectors were just ordinary guys who used common sense when doing check rides and were teachers not policy drones.

Ahhhh yes, those were the days indeed. When airplanes were falling out of the sky more often than there were thunder storms on a hot summer day. I made it out alive though, forget that I did similar things that killed many of my contemporaries. Because I made it through, it was the good ol' days when common sense prevailed! No survivorship bias here.

[98 Corolla]

Can anyone see the elevator move at all?

[cncpc]

Can anyone see the elevator move at all?

No, I can't.

[Siddley Hawker]

As a semi-insider in this thing, there are some things I can say with certainty. The engines were operating just fine - very smooth, appearing to make good power. The CG was near the center of the envelope. The gross weight at takeoff was slightly under our self-imposed limit of 25,200 lbs, which is more than 1000 lbs less than the normal max gross weight for this model of C-47. The gust locks had been removed and the controls were operating freely. The tailwheel was properly locked at the start of the takeoff run. So all you speculators.....just STFU!

There are still a number of current and ex-DC-3 drivers around, so there is bound to be a certain amount of speculation why an ostensibly flyable aircraft wound up crashing the way it did. You state "The engines were operating smoothly, the C of G was in limits, the airplane was over a thousand pounds under gross - if one uses 26,200 lbs of the -92 powered aircraft - the external locks had been removed and the controls were free." (The tailwheel lock is incidental, really. I worked for a company that operated castering gear DC-3's and you unlocked the tailwheel before takeoff, although they had sold the airplanes before I got there so I never had a chance to fly one.) The statement does more to encourage speculation than get rid it.

[C.W.E.]

And after watching the video's those of us who were/ are DC3 pilots find it unusual that it crashed the way it did and the STFU comment only makes us wonder more about why it happened.

So...

As Operations Officer for the Highland Lakes squadron, this flight was operated under my authority,

Did you train them?

The experts, the NTSB will take months or even years analyzing the facts of this accident to determine what happened,

If it takes them years to determine what happened given the pile of burnt airplane that remains I wouldn't give their opinion much credibility.

but many people seem to think they can watch a grainy video and know all sorts of things.

That video was good enough to show the take off was unorthodox and we are only wondering how it was allowed to continue to destruction of the airplane, especially reading this.

As a semi-insider in this thing, there are some things I can say with certainty. The engines were operating just fine - very smooth, appearing to make good power. The CG was near the center of the envelope. The gross weight at takeoff was slightly under our self-imposed limit of 25,200 lbs, which is more than 1000 lbs less than the normal max gross weight for this model of C-47. The gust locks had been removed and the controls were operating freely. The tailwheel was properly locked at the start of the takeoff run. So all you speculators.....just STFU!

You really seem to be defensive about the event , were you flying it?

[Siddley Hawker]

More info here. It's a FB video, I can't find it on YouTube.

https://www.facebook.com/dan.gryder/vid ... 184444866/

[PilotDAR]

Yes, the grainy video still shows a lot of what is needed to understand the path which the aircraft followed. The minute details which are not visible in the video, probably have much lesser relevance. I agree with ., the aircraft followed a flight path which pointed toward doom early in the takeoff run. If the engines were purring, all the more reason to wonder why the aircraft could not be/was not controlled into stable flight. If the tail was kept low on purpose, the purpose seems not to have been fulfilled. If the pilot did not or could not raise the tail early in the takeoff roll, the takeoff should have been aborted. I have observed that a pilot who is lax in controlling one axis adequately, is probably failing to exercise adequate control elsewhere too. So if the elevators were not being actively controlled, perhaps the rudder was not receiving adequate attention and effort either.

Decades ago, a pilot might get away with an error not being recorded, and gain the benefit of doubt. However, in today's world, particularly while flying an old/rare aircraft, you just gotta assume that someone is recording video of you, and there will be nowhere to hide if you get it wrong. Speculation is inevitable, and some of it is going to be very qualified speculation, so there's no point trying to suppress it.

I have nowhere near the experience flying DC-3's as many other posters here, but I would be scared to attempt to reproduce the takeoff technique I saw in the video - I know I'm not skilled enough to make a safe liftoff that way - even in the taildragger I own! I was nervous doing it at altitude, and two incipient spins later, I knew why!

But, what I write about the cause of this event is just my speculation......

[Siddley Hawker]

The guy in the video I linked to checked out the pilot who was flying right seat on the accident aircraft and who was doing the takeoff. Early on the roll the airplane yawed left, the guy in the left seat took control, the airplane then yawed right and headed for a culvert 1800 feet from the point where the takeoff began. The airplane was forced into the air to avoid the culvert, it stalled and the rest is history.

[C.W.E.]

Thanks for the comments PilotDAR it is sure nice having you here to make informed comments on these issues.

Like you I am not brave enough to attempt to fly a DC3 at critical alpha during a take off.

These forums can be a great teaching tool to help new pilots realise just how important it is to ensure you are flying any airplane within its safe operational limits.