C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

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C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. »

Stunning absolutely stunning.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by cncpc »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:38 pm Stunning absolutely stunning.
Control locks in, .? Or C of G way out?
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by JasonE »

Direct link to youtube video of crash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq_CgAiuk7s
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. »

Control locks in, .? Or C of G way out?
It could have been either one or just plain unbelievable poor airplane handling.

However if the locks were in or the C of G was way out they still did not have a clue about what they were doing.

Remember there are two pilots required for the DC3 and there is no reason I can think of to do what they did.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by FlyGy »

Guy shooting the video musta saw something. He recognised an issue pretty early in the roll.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by lownslow »

FlyGy wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:07 pm Guy shooting the video musta saw something. He recognised an issue pretty early in the roll.
While the control surfaces look nearly stationary in the video, there’s supposedly another video somewhere from a different angle where the rudder is moving from stop to stop and the plane is all over the runway. I suspect that’s what they guy filming is reacting to even though his footage doesn’t really show it.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by TG »

Initially I thought of them loosing power on one engine in a bad spot the way they were swerving (up into the grass it seems)
Being busy staying centered it looks like they forgot to properly raise their tail past 40/50kts
Or left the elevator locks on.

Doing so would put you “airborne” in a pretty nasty position, especially while kicking your rudder.

Can’t be that, it is basic stuff..
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

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C.W.E. wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:38 pmStunning absolutely stunning
I know, right? I mean, why wouldn't you turn the phone horizontally to record that?
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by AirFrame »

FlyGy wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:07 pm Guy shooting the video musta saw something. He recognised an issue pretty early in the roll.
If you watch it a few times you can see the plane yaws significantly before the guy makes his first "oh shit" comment, but it's hard to see because it's almost directly side-on at that point. The rudder does go hard over to one side when it happens though.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Victory »

The DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certificate. If it is modified with different engines it can become a two crew machine but good luck getting a foreign aviation authority to recognize it as multi-crew time if you need it for a job or license conversion.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by switchflicker »

Perhaps Victory is talking about a DHC-3 which is indeed a single pilot A/C and if it has enough mods can require two pilots under certain conditions.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. »

T
he DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certificate. If it is modified with different engines it can become a two crew machine
Victory when you fly the DC3 by yourself do you sit in the right hand seat so it is easier to use the flaps?
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by PilotDAR »

The DC-3 is a single pilot aircraft by type certificate.
Hmmm, type certificate A-699 does not seem to mention minimum crew. Canadian standard 421, Appendix A does though, and specifies the DC-3 as a two crew aircraft. For my limited time flying one, I would not want to be doing it solo!
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by pelmet »

Investigators will look into many aspects of this flight including the flight controls.

They may take note of DC-3 control locks. For instance, this picture here shows how the external elevator and rudder control locks are separate and in what position the elevators are held when locked.......

https://www.google.com/search?q=dc-3&so ... RPVBfrrFGM:

As well, the investigators will likely note what the elevator position is when the elevator control lock is not installed as seen here....

https://www.google.com/search?q=dc-3&so ... 4VLmjmurUM:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 240%29.jpg

Then they might look at the empennage of the accident DC-3 which can be seen in this picture......

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 50#p605245

...and look at the video again for explanation as to why the aircraft's tail did not come up on departure which one would think would require nose-down elevator input.

Depending on aircraft type, there can be more than one reason for an elevator to become blocked/jammed including exterior locks or some sort of internal malfunction or foreign object creating the blockage including something in the cockpit intentionally placed to hold the elevators in a certain position and then being forgotten as has happened on more than one C-130 to a malfuction in the internal gust lock mechanism as has happened on the HS-748 leading to the procedure to check the elevator during the takeoff roll. A DC-8 was even brought down in New York long ago due to a piece of asphalt blocking the controls.

The investigators will consider all these possibilities and others such as pilot technique.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19861004-0
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20151002-2
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19700908-1
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19790731-0

Of course we do not know precisely what happened in this accident and there may be an unrelated cause but......prior to getting into any smaller aircraft prior to engine start, I do a final check. As I have been flying various different types and it may have been several months between flights on a particular type, it is a generic check of which not all items will necessarily be applicable......Fuel caps on, oil cap on, no chocks, no tiedowns, no towbar, no pitot cover, baggage doors secure, no external locks, no intake plugs.

A friend of mine had an accident where he said that his controls became blocked on the takeoff roll and could not lower the nose once airborne. After that, I added an item to my second final check prior to takeoff which is done after completing the checklist to make sure things are properly set. Flaps, trim, mixture, boost pump, primer, mags. and the added item of just moving the elevator once again to ensure that it is free just in case, like my friend or the DC-8 in New York, somehow a piece of FOD got stuck in the elevator system(or the tail somehow hit something).
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Last edited by pelmet on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by C.W.E. »

I never started the take off roll without checking full and free movement of controls.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Blakey »

Forgive my ignorance of DC-3 Ops but is a flapless takeoff normal?
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by PilotDAR »

DC-3 rudders will swing easily in the wind, as they are connected only to the pedals. Thus, external rudder locks are very commonly used. The elevator locks tend to be removed with the rudder lock. Yes, a careless or distracted crew could forget to remove the control locks. If they forgot the control locks, and passed through the several checklist items about control locks and controls without checking, well then, human error. In theory, in a DC-3, yes, you could get to the runway, and begin your takeoff roll with any or all of the controls still externally locked. The DC-3 does not required vigorous nose down to get the tail up on takeoff, it comes up fairly well on it's own. Now if the pilot is trying to force the aircraft into the air, the tail is not going to come up on it's own. Attempting to force the aircraft into the air could result in liftoff below a safe flying speed, a wing drop in the stall, and perhaps errant application of aileron to lift a wing, which would just worsen things. The end result would be a wing drop, and dragging that wingtip into the ground while rolling and yawing out of control.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by GyvAir »

I've seen two DC3s flown single pilot in Canada. One Canadian registered and one N registered. Both flown by pilots sporting a bit of a renegade cowboy persona about them.
pelmet wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:11 am Then they might look at the empennage of the accident DC-3 which can be seen in this picture......

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... 50#p605245
By the time that photo was taken, the right elevator and stab tips were resting on the ground, holding the elevators up. In this earlier photo the elevators appear to be hanging full down:
Image

Going frame by frame through the video posted earlier, the rudder can be clearly seen moving what could be lock to lock. More subtle - and maybe I'm mistaken - but I think the ailerons can be seen moving as expected for the attitude changes while the aircraft is airborne. Pretty hard to tell with the elevators, too.. possibly pulled up around 25-26 seconds into the video.
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Re: C-47 Takeoff Groundloop and Crash

Post by Cat Driver »

Forgive my ignorance of DC-3 Ops but is a flapless takeoff normal?
Yes.
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