Air Canada lands again

[youhavecontrol]

Sometimes tower will give you an instruction that you happen to miss because of a whole host of things. Often if they don't have enough time to repeat the instruction to you, it was given with very, very late notice. Perhaps they said the instruction once, but didn't repeat it because it was already too late.

[Eric Janson]

Im genuinely curious so why is there so much talking in the last 500' then on the bus?
Sometimes less is better is it not?
Is this a result of adding a new SOP every time something happened and the corrective action was to add more words?

This certainly isn't my experience flying the airbus. The only calls on a normal approach below 1000' are "100 above" and "minimums" from the PNF and "Continue" from the PF.

The auto-callouts are not particularly distracting imho.

A low altitude go-around is not a dangerous maneuver imho - I wouldn't think twice about making one.

Curious to hear what others are doing

[trey kule]

I have to wonder how many of you who have posted about the constant need to communicate at critical times, Overburdening SOPs., critical moment cockpit distractions.....have made any reports of it on your company SMS .

Personally, I found that being called a retard at a critical juncture was inferiorating.

Instead of bitching and complainng, or making excuses, get proactive and enter in your SMS...amazing what a written report by a few crew members will do. Complaining about it after an accident is a bit late. Though if its just excuse making.....

As to Pelmet...I find, for the most part, his bringing these incidents up interesting, particularily as he often cites older ones.
As to his no fault landing policy comment. Seriously folks? Take it for what it was and stop with all the outrage.

[Rockie]

As to his no fault landing policy comment. Seriously folks? Take it for what it was and stop with all the outrage.

Outrage? I'm guessing you've never seen outrage....

[pelmet]

Hmmm...some interesting responses. I don't fly an Airbus...yet.

But we had three people(at least one of whom is known to work at AC) post about what sounds like a lot of calls by pilots on final approach.....

There's so much talking and callouts required by the SOPs that no one is listening to ATC on final.

That's a high workload phase of flight with multiple SOP calls going on... it's possible for the aircraft to be make calls outs, the pilots making call outs, and a transmission gets missed. That happens every day.

I have never seen such wordy SOPs untill the 'bus.

So, I just assume that this is the Airbus SOP from the manufacturer.

But then an Airbus guy from the Middle East says that this is not the case at his operation....

This certainly isn't my experience flying the airbus. The only calls on a normal approach below 1000' are "100 above" and "minimums" from the PNF and "Continue" from the PF.
The auto-callouts are not particularly distracting imho.

So are the multitude of calls Airbus Industrie SOP, with AC following the manufacturers SOP while the Middle East carrier has decided to does different to create a quiet cockpit or vice versa....or something in between.

[Victory]

Air Canada SOPs. The Boeing ones have you blathering on also. Apparently there are stable approach calls that are getting added on too.

[pelmet]

Air Canada SOPs. The Boeing ones have you blathering on also. Apparently there are stable approach calls that are getting added on too.

So has AC added a lot of SOP calls to the Airbus recommended ones?

[NotDirty!]

I’m not sure what verbose sop calls you are referring to. You are supposed to be fully configured by 1000 AGL, so the first sound below 1000 on a typical ILS is the auto callout at 400’.
Then...
.......................................................PF ......................................... “LAND GREEN”
................................................................ PM .................................................. “ROGER”
Check LAND is annunciated in green on the FMA.
.............................................................. PM............... “HUNDRED ABOVE, STABLE” or
“HUNDRED ABOVE (auto callout), STABLE”
.............................................................. PF ................................................ “ROGER”

................................................................ PM ......... “MINIMUM” or MINIMUM (auto callout)
.............................................................. PF ............................................. “LANDING”

Then “100...50...30...RETARD”

[Antique Pilot]

Many years ago I was landing at a busy Canadian Airport. 2 man crew. It was my turn to fly. On the flare after I closed the throttles the the other pilot says: Say, did we get landing clearance? I says, Boy I don’t remember. Too late now. After touchdown and rollout Tower says cleared to land. Perfect. No big deal. No paper work. Off to Arizona’s for debriefing.
WGAS?

AP

[Eric Janson]

But then an Airbus guy from the Middle East says that this is not the case at his operation....

This certainly isn't my experience flying the airbus. The only calls on a normal approach below 1000' are "100 above" and "minimums" from the PNF and "Continue" from the PF.
The auto-callouts are not particularly distracting imho.

So are the multitude of calls Airbus Industrie SOP, with AC following the manufacturers SOP while the Middle East carrier has decided to does different to create a quiet cockpit or vice versa....or something in between.

I fly for an EU based Airline.

We operate standard airbus SOP with a few minor modifications.

[altiplano]

I’m not sure what verbose sop calls you are referring to. You are supposed to be fully configured by 1000 AGL, so the first sound below 1000 on a typical ILS is the auto callout at 400’.
Then...
.......................................................PF ......................................... “LAND GREEN”
................................................................ PM .................................................. “ROGER”
Check LAND is annunciated in green on the FMA.
.............................................................. PM............... “HUNDRED ABOVE, STABLE” or
“HUNDRED ABOVE (auto callout), STABLE”
.............................................................. PF ................................................ “ROGER”

................................................................ PM ......... “MINIMUM” or MINIMUM (auto callout)
.............................................................. PF ............................................. “LANDING”

Then “100...50...30...RETARD”

Add in the few extra calls that might get made...

"Landing"

"Roger"

"Autopilot coming off"

"Roger"

"Autothrottle coming off"

"Roger'

"Looks like that guy ahead is going to make that high-speed"

"Roger"

"Approaching MINIMUMS"

"Stable"

"Roger"

"MINIMUMS"

"Landing"

"Roger"

And somewhere in there... "Aircraft xxx exit right high-speed x contact ground on freq"
"Aircraft xxx off on taxiway x and we'll call ground on freq"
"Air Canada <inaudible>"

"Check you're half a dot high on glide slope"

"Roger, visual, transitioned to the PAPI"

"That guys off up ahead now"

"Roger"

"50"

It's like nobody here has ever missed a radio call...

Did Tower call them a second time?

[NotDirty!]

Add in the few extra calls that might get made...

"Landing"

"Roger"

"Autopilot coming off"

"Roger"

"Autothrottle coming off"

"Roger'

"Looks like that guy ahead is going to make that high-speed"

"Roger"

"Approaching MINIMUMS"

"Stable"

"Roger"

"MINIMUMS"

"Landing"

"Roger"

And somewhere in there... "Aircraft xxx exit right high-speed x contact ground on freq"
"Aircraft xxx off on taxiway x and we'll call ground on freq"
"Air Canada <inaudible>"

"Check you're half a dot high on glide slope"

"Roger, visual, transitioned to the PAPI"

"That guys off up ahead now"

"Roger"

"50"

It's like nobody here has ever missed a radio call...

Did Tower call them a second time?

I don’t disagree with you at all... and I know I have missed my fair share of radio calls over the years! I was trying to address the theory that the SOPs were too wordy... I am not sure what the solution is, but I too would like to know if there was more than one call, etc.

[Rooster69]

For starters:


Wiggle the thumbs over the FAF. I miss that.

VFR ceilings: when runway visual. “Runway in sight”. ... cut out “hundred above “, “minimums” , “landing”.

[Eric Janson]

Interestingly we don't have a "Landing" call at my Airline - we're not the only ones.

At minimums we use "Continue" - the idea being that even at this point a go-around may be required.

[Victory]

"Go around."
"I'm sorry I've already said landing."

[pelmet]

Discussed on PPrune. A recent foreign pilot's experience with an encounter with Big Red in Germany.....

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/612 ... st10239489

[co-joe]

So tower couldn't reach the light gun?

[Hangry]

So tower couldn't reach the light gun?

Who looks for lights from the tower? I wouldn’t even know which tower is the “tower” at most airports.

[youhavecontrol]

So tower couldn't reach the light gun?

Who looks for lights from the tower? I wouldn’t even know which tower is the “tower” at most airports.

+1... for those of you that think the light gun is such a simple solution - It's not like they keep it in a holster on their belt for immediate use. At my airport tower, it's about 15 feet across the room on a charging rack. When they suspect a problem, they have to wave to the floor supervisor to bring it over, or get up and grab it themselves, leaving their station. It's not an instant solution, but it can take a few seconds to fetch. Also, most people don't suspect a comm failure for missing one instruction.

[Rockie]

If the tower red light was bright enough to get my attention I'd probably report it afterwards as a laser strike. FWIW I keep guard up from brake release to when it's set again unless the second radio is specifically needed for something else, and then it's put back to guard immediately afterwards. Now if only the dolts would quit playing silly bugger on guard I wouldn't be tempted to turn it off....