Air Canada lands again
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
Re: Air Canada lands again
Air Canada SOPs. The Boeing ones have you blathering on also. Apparently there are stable approach calls that are getting added on too.
Re: Air Canada lands again
So has AC added a lot of SOP calls to the Airbus recommended ones?
Re: Air Canada lands again
I’m not sure what verbose sop calls you are referring to. You are supposed to be fully configured by 1000 AGL, so the first sound below 1000 on a typical ILS is the auto callout at 400’.
Then...
.......................................................PF ......................................... “LAND GREEN”
................................................................ PM .................................................. “ROGER”
Check LAND is annunciated in green on the FMA.
.............................................................. PM............... “HUNDRED ABOVE, STABLE” or
“HUNDRED ABOVE (auto callout), STABLE”
.............................................................. PF ................................................ “ROGER”
................................................................ PM ......... “MINIMUM” or MINIMUM (auto callout)
.............................................................. PF ............................................. “LANDING”
Then “100...50...30...RETARD”
Then...
.......................................................PF ......................................... “LAND GREEN”
................................................................ PM .................................................. “ROGER”
Check LAND is annunciated in green on the FMA.
.............................................................. PM............... “HUNDRED ABOVE, STABLE” or
“HUNDRED ABOVE (auto callout), STABLE”
.............................................................. PF ................................................ “ROGER”
................................................................ PM ......... “MINIMUM” or MINIMUM (auto callout)
.............................................................. PF ............................................. “LANDING”
Then “100...50...30...RETARD”
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Re: Air Canada lands again
Many years ago I was landing at a busy Canadian Airport. 2 man crew. It was my turn to fly. On the flare after I closed the throttles the the other pilot says: Say, did we get landing clearance? I says, Boy I don’t remember. Too late now. After touchdown and rollout Tower says cleared to land. Perfect. No big deal. No paper work. Off to Arizona’s for debriefing.
WGAS?
AP
WGAS?
AP
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Re: Air Canada lands again
I fly for an EU based Airline.pelmet wrote: ↑Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:24 pm
But then an Airbus guy from the Middle East says that this is not the case at his operation....
So are the multitude of calls Airbus Industrie SOP, with AC following the manufacturers SOP while the Middle East carrier has decided to does different to create a quiet cockpit or vice versa....or something in between.Eric Janson wrote: ↑Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:49 pm This certainly isn't my experience flying the airbus. The only calls on a normal approach below 1000' are "100 above" and "minimums" from the PNF and "Continue" from the PF.
The auto-callouts are not particularly distracting imho.
We operate standard airbus SOP with a few minor modifications.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Re: Air Canada lands again
Add in the few extra calls that might get made...NotDirty! wrote: ↑Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:40 pm I’m not sure what verbose sop calls you are referring to. You are supposed to be fully configured by 1000 AGL, so the first sound below 1000 on a typical ILS is the auto callout at 400’.
Then...
.......................................................PF ......................................... “LAND GREEN”
................................................................ PM .................................................. “ROGER”
Check LAND is annunciated in green on the FMA.
.............................................................. PM............... “HUNDRED ABOVE, STABLE” or
“HUNDRED ABOVE (auto callout), STABLE”
.............................................................. PF ................................................ “ROGER”
................................................................ PM ......... “MINIMUM” or MINIMUM (auto callout)
.............................................................. PF ............................................. “LANDING”
Then “100...50...30...RETARD”
"Landing"
"Roger"
"Autopilot coming off"
"Roger"
"Autothrottle coming off"
"Roger'
"Looks like that guy ahead is going to make that high-speed"
"Roger"
"Approaching MINIMUMS"
"Stable"
"Roger"
"MINIMUMS"
"Landing"
"Roger"
And somewhere in there... "Aircraft xxx exit right high-speed x contact ground on freq"
"Aircraft xxx off on taxiway x and we'll call ground on freq"
"Air Canada <inaudible>"
"Check you're half a dot high on glide slope"
"Roger, visual, transitioned to the PAPI"
"That guys off up ahead now"
"Roger"
"50"
It's like nobody here has ever missed a radio call...
Did Tower call them a second time?
Re: Air Canada lands again
I don’t disagree with you at all... and I know I have missed my fair share of radio calls over the years! I was trying to address the theory that the SOPs were too wordy... I am not sure what the solution is, but I too would like to know if there was more than one call, etc.altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:52 am
Add in the few extra calls that might get made...
"Landing"
"Roger"
"Autopilot coming off"
"Roger"
"Autothrottle coming off"
"Roger'
"Looks like that guy ahead is going to make that high-speed"
"Roger"
"Approaching MINIMUMS"
"Stable"
"Roger"
"MINIMUMS"
"Landing"
"Roger"
And somewhere in there... "Aircraft xxx exit right high-speed x contact ground on freq"
"Aircraft xxx off on taxiway x and we'll call ground on freq"
"Air Canada <inaudible>"
"Check you're half a dot high on glide slope"
"Roger, visual, transitioned to the PAPI"
"That guys off up ahead now"
"Roger"
"50"
It's like nobody here has ever missed a radio call...
Did Tower call them a second time?
Re: Air Canada lands again
For starters:
Wiggle the thumbs over the FAF. I miss that.
VFR ceilings: when runway visual. “Runway in sight”. ... cut out “hundred above “, “minimums” , “landing”.
Wiggle the thumbs over the FAF. I miss that.
VFR ceilings: when runway visual. “Runway in sight”. ... cut out “hundred above “, “minimums” , “landing”.
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Re: Air Canada lands again
Interestingly we don't have a "Landing" call at my Airline - we're not the only ones.
At minimums we use "Continue" - the idea being that even at this point a go-around may be required.
At minimums we use "Continue" - the idea being that even at this point a go-around may be required.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Re: Air Canada lands again
"Go around."
"I'm sorry I've already said landing."
"I'm sorry I've already said landing."
Re: Air Canada lands again
Discussed on PPrune. A recent foreign pilot's experience with an encounter with Big Red in Germany.....
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/612 ... st10239489
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/612 ... st10239489
Last edited by pelmet on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Air Canada lands again
+1... for those of you that think the light gun is such a simple solution - It's not like they keep it in a holster on their belt for immediate use. At my airport tower, it's about 15 feet across the room on a charging rack. When they suspect a problem, they have to wave to the floor supervisor to bring it over, or get up and grab it themselves, leaving their station. It's not an instant solution, but it can take a few seconds to fetch. Also, most people don't suspect a comm failure for missing one instruction.
"I found that Right Rudder you kept asking for."
Re: Air Canada lands again
If the tower red light was bright enough to get my attention I'd probably report it afterwards as a laser strike. FWIW I keep guard up from brake release to when it's set again unless the second radio is specifically needed for something else, and then it's put back to guard immediately afterwards. Now if only the dolts would quit playing silly bugger on guard I wouldn't be tempted to turn it off....
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Re: Air Canada lands again
Sounds to me like a couple of you need to re-write the PSTAR.
Re: Air Canada lands again
You would have guard up on com2 during the last 1000 ft of an approachRockie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:51 pm If the tower red light was bright enough to get my attention I'd probably report it afterwards as a laser strike. FWIW I keep guard up from brake release to when it's set again unless the second radio is specifically needed for something else, and then it's put back to guard immediately afterwards. Now if only the dolts would quit playing silly bugger on guard I wouldn't be tempted to turn it off....
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Air Canada lands again
What are you getting at? Guard is pretty much always on comm 2...
Re: Air Canada lands again
Interesting. I was unaware of that. I thought by that time dispatch/company frequencies would have been up to give eta's etc. I did not expect you would switch it back to guard for approach. It is a high workload situation, so I figured distractions from guard would not be welcome.
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Re: Air Canada lands again
Unless that distraction is telling you to stop what you’re doing because you’re going to hit something.