Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

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200hr Wonder
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Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#1 Post by 200hr Wonder » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:30 pm

Very few details so far just that it has gone down...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-460 ... NvCTPbSTfs
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#2 Post by BigQ » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:31 pm

10 week old jet.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#3 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:44 am

The sad truth is that there is zero safety culture in Indonesia. At one point even Garuda was banned from operating to Europe.

Any Airline in a Western country with a safety record like that of Lion Air would have been shut down a long time ago. This may finally do it depending on what is found.

There have been numerous posts about what it is like working for Lion Air as a P2F F/O - this includes forged training records and the exceedance of maximum flight and duty hours.

I've had discussions with these P2F Pilots who defended this company. I asked them a few simple questions:-

- How many Indonesian Captains will make a go-around from an unstable approach?
- How many Indonesian Captains will make a go-around if you call for it as F/O?
- Would you ever take over controls from one of these Captains?

Never did get an answer!

You are dealing with a Culture where it is unacceptable to question the decision of a superior and a go-around is a loss of "face" (ie:- not going to happen!). The Culture is not compatible with flying multi-crew aircraft. Combine this with a very hostile operating environment and you get a high accident rate.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#4 Post by ant_321 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:25 am

I was looking at the radar image on another site. Assuming it was accurate, there airspeed was fluctuating from about 290-345kts and the altitude between about 5400-4600’ until it fell to 3600’ and then disappeared from radar. The news reported that the airplane had just gotten out of maintenance and the crew was “experienced”. The crew reported a problem and were cleared to return. I guess we’ll find out if Indonesian investigators are any faster than Canadian ones.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#5 Post by Anticyclone » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:32 am

First Id like to extand my condoleances to the passengers and crew members families its very sad and i hope this tragedy will prevent others from happening.

Sadly there is some truth in what has been said above but unlike Eric i got the answers to his questions, there are some cultural barriers that prevent a safe execution of the SOP however there are some missed approaches executed at the FO request but they have to use some kind of drastic measures to get them.

Lets just wait to hear more, remember who would ve thought an Air France 330 would stall in cruise phase?
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#6 Post by lostaviator » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:58 am

The altitude profile on the tracking sites definitely raises some questions. While data isn’t 100% accurate, comparing the graphs of flight 610 over a course of a few days, something was up.

An earlier article I read (think BBC) had a quote that the max had a history of issues holding altitude.... As someone who operates these things, I’d like to think I’d be made aware of such an issue. But haven’t heard anything like what was reported. Anyone with more background on that claim?
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#7 Post by Donald » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:45 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:25 am
I was looking at the radar image on another site. Assuming it was accurate, there airspeed was fluctuating from about 290-345kts and the altitude between about 5400-4600’ until it fell to 3600’ and then disappeared from radar. The news reported that the airplane had just gotten out of maintenance and the crew was “experienced”. The crew reported a problem and were cleared to return. I guess we’ll find out if Indonesian investigators are any faster than Canadian ones.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4bf90724&opt=0
The airline reported the aircraft encountered a technical problem, the crew was about to return to Jakarta. There had also been a technical problem on the previous flight, this problem however was fixed (editorial note: the aircraft remained on the ground in Jakarta over night for 8 hours prior to the accident flight, there is a write up circulating in the Internet only claiming the aircraft had experienced unreliable airspeed and altitude on the previous flight, the captain's instruments were identified faulty, control was handed to the first officer and the flight continued to destination below RVSM airspace - we removed this write up repeatedly from our reader comment board because of its unverified nature and because it supposedly contains names of flight crew). The captain had accumulated 6,000 hours of total flight experience, the first officer 5,000 hours.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#8 Post by ant_321 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:50 pm

Interesting. There’s no reason an unreliable airspeed should cause a 737 to crash but nothing surprises me anymore.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#9 Post by flyer 1492 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:09 pm

It came out of mtce perhaps the Static Ports taped over?

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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#10 Post by pianokeys » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:14 pm

Lion Air is no longer banned from the EU since 2016.

But that still doesnt change the fact they have a crappy maintenance record and crappy safety record. How do you destroy an airplane that is fresh out of the box?
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#11 Post by pelmet » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:46 pm

pianokeys wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:14 pm
Lion Air is no longer banned from the EU since 2016.
There were rumours that it had to do with a very large Airbus order.

Know a couple of ex-Lion Air guys.....interesting stories. Same with other guys who flew in Indonesia. Almost like the stories one gets flying in northern Canada but with tropical weather included.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#12 Post by Eric Janson » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:51 pm

lostaviator wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:58 am
The altitude profile on the tracking sites definitely raises some questions. While data isn’t 100% accurate, comparing the graphs of flight 610 over a course of a few days, something was up.

An earlier article I read (think BBC) had a quote that the max had a history of issues holding altitude.... As someone who operates these things, I’d like to think I’d be made aware of such an issue. But haven’t heard anything like what was reported. Anyone with more background on that claim?
The quote about problems holding altitude was a reference to this specific flight. Somehow it was wrongly interpreted as applying to all aircraft of this type.

Discussion about this and the person who made the original statement on Airliners.net
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#13 Post by YYCAME » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:06 am

One of the articles was about the previous leg where passengers suffered a lot of nausea from porpoising. They also had the packs and likely bleeds turned off for like half an hour pre-flight to do some testing so it certainly is a possibility that they were having issues with thrust fluctuations and making correct power in response to throttle position. If there were mechanical issues with something like the variable stator vanes then pushing up the power would only increase the chances of a compressor stall. Sounds like there was some bad maintenance if those reports are true.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/previous-f ... -1.4153249
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#14 Post by Anticyclone » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:15 am

These vapor and nausea thing on a 737 is the consequence of overfilling the hydraulic B reservoir its always been an issue but it could be a sign that maintenance were topping up hydraulics as tech log showed differential pressure caution light a few days before.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#15 Post by golden hawk » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:45 pm

pianokeys wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:14 pm
Lion Air is no longer banned from the EU since 2016.

But that still doesnt change the fact they have a crappy maintenance record and crappy safety record. How do you destroy an airplane that is fresh out of the box?
Can't find them here....

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/ai ... /search_en
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#16 Post by Eric Janson » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:03 pm

All Indonesian carriers need to be put back on that list imho.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#17 Post by Rudy » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:16 pm

Garuda seemed alright.

When I was Indonesia I was pretty surprised by the amount of crashes. Even for the third world it was high. Not only small aircraft either. Their were 705 sized machines augering in every month or so. It rarely made the world news but this one being Lion and in Jakarta is a bit hard to sweep under the rug. Lovely people though.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#18 Post by Eric Janson » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:12 am

You really want an insight into the total lack of safety culture in the region - look at their record operating ferries between the various islands.

I see the "Game of Shape" has already started....

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-as ... lane-crash

This before the aircraft has even been found.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#19 Post by tractor driver » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:17 am

During a 10 week period of flying in Indonesia, I personally saw 21 wrecks. Mostly non fatal, all easily preventable. There was a tragic “must get the flight done” attitude that ended up poorly when conditions, usually weather, sometimes mechanical, were against success.
The people we were working with were trying to turn this situation around with a strong safety culture. To date they have been successful in their operation,but not everyone seems to be following this concept. The means are there to operate safely and effectively. Just everyone has to buy in.
A lovely society of people, who never want to disappoint, and always get the job done. There’s just no place for that absolute attitude in aviation.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#20 Post by Eric Janson » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:56 pm

tractor driver wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:17 am
During a 10 week period of flying in Indonesia, I personally saw 21 wrecks. Mostly non fatal, all easily preventable. There was a tragic “must get the flight done” attitude that ended up poorly when conditions, usually weather, sometimes mechanical, were against success.
The people we were working with were trying to turn this situation around with a strong safety culture. To date they have been successful in their operation,but not everyone seems to be following this concept. The means are there to operate safely and effectively. Just everyone has to buy in.
A lovely society of people, who never want to disappoint, and always get the job done. There’s just no place for that absolute attitude in aviation.
Very difficult when failure to perform the flight or a go-around equates to a loss of 'face'.

Doesn't help when a corrupt regulator can be bought - serious incidents are covered up.

A few courses cannot overcome thousands of years of culture.

I've worked at a place where you could see the Reason Model (holes in the cheese) happening in real life! There was a complete disconnect between the Flight ops Management and the Line. The only thing you could do was to make sure the part of operation you were responsible for was done properly and the accidents/incidents didn't happen on your flight.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#21 Post by BigQ » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:54 am

1st black box found
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#22 Post by pelmet » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:15 pm

"An Indonesian safety official has confirmed the Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX 8 that crashed Oct. 29 had unreliable airspeed readings on its previous flight."

http://atwonline.com/safety/official-pr ... -737-max-8

Unknown if the accident pilots were aware of what happened on the previous flight. But if the journey log has an unreliable airspeed entry, it might be an idea to carefully review what to do if it turns out that it was not fixed properly.

I have had a couple of bad airspeed scenarios due to water in the static system on a twin Cessna but on VFR flights where a quick pull of the alternate static solved the problem. Still, the first time it happened I had near normal airspeed until liftoff and then it seriously lagged resulting in me flying out much more shallow than normal until it was figured out.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#23 Post by FL007 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:25 pm

pelmet wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:15 pm
"An Indonesian safety official has confirmed the Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX 8 that crashed Oct. 29 had unreliable airspeed readings on its previous flight."

http://atwonline.com/safety/official-pr ... -737-max-8

Unknown if the accident pilots were aware of what happened on the previous flight. But if the journey log has an unreliable airspeed entry, it might be an idea to carefully review what to do if it turns out that it was not fixed properly.

I have had a couple of bad airspeed scenarios due to water in the static system on a twin Cessna but on VFR flights where a quick pull of the alternate static solved the problem. Still, the first time it happened I had near normal airspeed until liftoff and then it seriously lagged resulting in me flying out much more shallow than normal until it was figured out.
The likelihood is they had a blocked pitot system somehow. That would have affected their AS indicator and hopefully had a call on depatrue noting the discrepancy of airspeed on takeoff.

Really what would solve this is knowledge of power setting and pitch attitude.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#24 Post by Eric Janson » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:02 am

FL007 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:25 pm

Really what would solve this is knowledge of power setting and pitch attitude.
There's a QRH procedure which has to be followed in this situation.

In the airbus the first part are recall items done from memory.

I'm sure someone who flies Boeing can advise what their QRH procedures are. Probably very similar.

Basically it's disabling the automatics, removing the Flight Director bar(s) and flying Pitch/Power to level off at at safe altitude.

I normally write the Pitch/Power for level flight for the take-off configuration and for clean configuration on the back of the flightplan as a quick reference. I also know what pitch power to set for my aircraft in high altitude cruise so that the aircraft will fly safely while problems are sorted out.

A really nice feature on the airbus is the "Emergeny Cancel" pushbutton which will instantly silence all aural warnings and extinguish the warning and caution lights so you can focus on flying the aircraft.

I'm sure the investigation will reveal what was done in the cockpit.
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Re: Lion Air 737 MAX 8 Crashes in Indoesia

#25 Post by complexintentions » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:13 am

Yeah, Boeing's QRH does have stock power/pitch settings for "Unreliable Airspeed", and they're memory items as well.

It's one of the worst-handled emergencies in the sim. Everyone's an ace at the V1 cuts but lose their pitot/static and it looks like "man wrestling chicken". :(
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