Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Tips Up
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:29 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Tips Up »

The only problem with ADS-B is, Canada is not implementing it in January 2020. Therefor, any ADS-B receiver in Canada is pretty useless as Canada has no ADS-B ground stations. I have a portable Scout ADS-B receiver and used it extensively while flying in California, Oregon and Washington and it worked great. The only thing I see when I use it here in BC are other aircraft with ADS-B out installed, which are mostly airliners at this point.
[/quote]

Exactly. Which is why when I did a major panel upgrade I went with the Lynx transponder with active traffic surveillance. Any aircraft with a transponder signal are then picked up and come up on the lynx screen as well as the GTN. Not dependent on adsb. Costly? Yup. Worth it? Very much so. I can’t tell you how many times it’s picked up traffic, especially around training areas or coming in to join the circuit, that I had not seen or heard and directed my attention to that area. Best piece of new tech I put in.
---------- ADS -----------
 
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by pelmet »

PilotDAR wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:59 pm
We all know who has right of way in the circuit. You're the pilot of a faster, higher aircraft. Who ran into whom?
My thought exactly....
I think that is all based on being aware of the other aircraft and its location. Difficult to know at this time what all the variables were in the accident.

It does seem a bit odd to me that one would tell ATC that they had a midair collision but not declare an emergency when asked by ATC if they were declaring one. You are almost guaranteed to have damage. I suspect an emergency was declared by ATC with emergency vehicles waiting anyways.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Capt. Underpants
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 am

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Capt. Underpants »

The scariest close call I've had in an airplane was while doing night circuits at an uncontrolled airport in southern Ontario. We'd been in the circuit for over 30 minutes and had made all the required broadcasts on the MF. On final at about 100 ft AGL, I spotted the reflection of strobe lights coming up from the snow covered ground. I quickly remembered that our C150 didn't have strobes. I instinctively looked down and saw the wing of another aircraft below me. I took control from the student and did an immediate go-around, circled back around and landed. We soon learned the other aircraft was a locally owned C182. When I enquired, he admitted he'd done a straight in approach and hadn't made any calls on the MF. He said he never saw us but I suspect he gained on us on final as he was notorious for flying fast approaches and doing the late slow down addition of flaps. I looked in the cockpit and found that both radios were still tuned to the nearest tower frequency 20 miles away. He was lucky that my student was a young lady, otherwise he would have received an appropriately colorful tongue lashing.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
waterdog
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:10 am

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by waterdog »

Having engaged in a recent FB discussion with the Ottawa based pilots I actually think the problem is a lot more basic than needing ADSB. What became evident in the discussion was that at CARP some pilots are talking to Terminal as they are approaching the airspace and others are doing circuits are on the appropriate ATF. All of this is very normal and happens all the time at all kinds of airports. The problem that became evident was that there is a lot of confusion on appropriate radio transmissions and when. Some pilots were adamant that the reporting obligation was 5 miles from the airport. This has been confused from what is required under CARS and as recommended in the AIM that you report 5 minutes out. Big difference. I think that given this accident and the fact the Buttonville is losing its tower and becoming a MF, Transport Canada would do well to hold some refresher courses on some basic radio calls and their requirements under the rules. Some pilots seem to be under the impression that if they are on with Terminal they have to stay with ATC and are under no obligation to make a radio call on the MF or ATF of the airport they are headed to. In a slow bug smasher this isn't often a problem, but when you mix in a faster twin or some faster planes this becomes a problem very very quickly. This is by no means a problem specific to CARP but I think an indication of a much bigger problem that we have forgotten some of the basics and some radio refresher is in order.
---------- ADS -----------
 
jakeandelwood
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:45 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by jakeandelwood »

Capt. Underpants wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:38 pm The scariest close call I've had in an airplane was while doing night circuits at an uncontrolled airport in southern Ontario. We'd been in the circuit for over 30 minutes and had made all the required broadcasts on the MF. On final at about 100 ft AGL, I spotted the reflection of strobe lights coming up from the snow covered ground. I quickly remembered that our C150 didn't have strobes. I instinctively looked down and saw the wing of another aircraft below me. I took control from the student and did an immediate go-around, circled back around and landed. We soon learned the other aircraft was a locally owned C182. When I enquired, he admitted he'd done a straight in approach and hadn't made any calls on the MF. He said he never saw us but I suspect he gained on us on final as he was notorious for flying fast approaches and doing the late slow down addition of flaps. I looked in the cockpit and found that both radios were still tuned to the nearest tower frequency 20 miles away. He was lucky that my student was a young lady, otherwise he would have received an appropriately colorful tongue lashing.
Wow, that's just plain scary.
---------- ADS -----------
 
PlanePaully
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:56 am
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by PlanePaully »

waterdog wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:52 pm Having engaged in a recent FB discussion with the Ottawa based pilots I actually think the problem is a lot more basic than needing ADSB. What became evident in the discussion was that at CARP some pilots are talking to Terminal as they are approaching the airspace and others are doing circuits are on the appropriate ATF. All of this is very normal and happens all the time at all kinds of airports. The problem that became evident was that there is a lot of confusion on appropriate radio transmissions and when. Some pilots were adamant that the reporting obligation was 5 miles from the airport. This has been confused from what is required under CARS and as recommended in the AIM that you report 5 minutes out. Big difference. I think that given this accident and the fact the Buttonville is losing its tower and becoming a MF, Transport Canada would do well to hold some refresher courses on some basic radio calls and their requirements under the rules. Some pilots seem to be under the impression that if they are on with Terminal they have to stay with ATC and are under no obligation to make a radio call on the MF or ATF of the airport they are headed to. In a slow bug smasher this isn't often a problem, but when you mix in a faster twin or some faster planes this becomes a problem very very quickly. This is by no means a problem specific to CARP but I think an indication of a much bigger problem that we have forgotten some of the basics and some radio refresher is in order.
Totally agree with this idea! People get rusty, and refreshers are a good idea. Buttonville Flying Club had someone speak about MF procedures at a recent meeting. Guy said that a lot of people get confused about the 5 minutes rule: It is specifically five minutes from the edge of the zone, not the airport. If you are in a 172 or similar, that means something like 15 miles back. That presents a logistical problem for all traffic headed north from the Island. By the time YTZ Tower cuts you loose, you are typically closer than that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by photofly »

It’s not really an issue. The rule is to transmit before entering the MF area and where circumstances permit five minutes before entering the MF area. (602.101) So if it’s not feasible to give five minutes notice, you don’t have to.

I hope your flying club person made that clear.

You could even broadcast on the MF frequency while on the ground queuing for take off clearance at CYTZ.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
pelmet
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7138
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 2:48 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by pelmet »

Quite a bit of damage to the PA-42 from the collision....

"C-FCSL, a privately operated Piper PA-42 aircraft, was approaching Ottawa/Carp (CYRP), ON under visual flight rules (VFR) with 1 pilot and 1 passenger on board. C-FGMZ, a privately operated Cessna 150G aircraft, was also operating in the vicinity of CYRP with only the pilot on board. At approximately 1010 EST, both aircraft collided while they were in the circuit within the downwind area for Runway 28. One of the wings of the Cessna 150G was partially severed, which rendered the aircraft uncontrollable. The aircraft impacted the ground, and there was a post impact fire. The pilot was fatally injured, and the aircraft was destroyed. The pilot of C-FCSL notified ATC, and diverted to Ottawa/Macdonald-Cartier Intl (CYOW), ON where the aircraft landed successfully on Runway 32. C-FCSL sustained damage to the wings, main landing gear, aft fuselage and rudder. The weather conditions at the time of the accident was a few clouds, and a visibility of 20 sm. The TSB is investigating."
---------- ADS -----------
 
FlyGy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 549
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by FlyGy »

---------- ADS -----------
 
broken_slinky
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:48 am

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by broken_slinky »

FlyGy wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:56 pm The Cheyenne is for sale

https://www.ironplanet.com/jsp/s/item/2 ... n&src=mktg
Wow, look at the damage to the Cheyenne in the photos.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Mick G
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:21 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Mick G »

How much is it?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Oldguystrtn2fly
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:30 am

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Oldguystrtn2fly »

Looks like a sealed bid auction. Only one way to find out what it will sell for.
---------- ADS -----------
 
05480213
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:31 am

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by 05480213 »

As a person who flies IFR into an uncontrolled airport regularly, I can monitor the unicom well before I enter the control zone, while still on centre and if everybody is communicating properly, I pretty much know where to look for traffic.
---------- ADS -----------
 
FlyGy
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 549
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by FlyGy »

05480213 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm As a person who flies IFR into an uncontrolled airport regularly, I can monitor the unicom well before I enter the control zone, while still on centre and if everybody is communicating properly, I pretty much know where to look for traffic.
Isn't that just common sense? Whether I'm VFR or IFR I'm always listening to unicom when I get within 30 miles of my destination as well as the unicom of any airports I may pass near while enroute, even if I'm well clear of the zone.
---------- ADS -----------
 
linecrew
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1887
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 6:53 am
Location: On final so get off the damn runway!

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by linecrew »

05480213 wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm As a person who flies IFR into an uncontrolled airport regularly, I can monitor the unicom well before I enter the control zone, while still on centre and if everybody is communicating properly, I pretty much know where to look for traffic.
"...if everybody is communicating properly,..."
This is the important part, right here. Also note that if it is an ATF, and not an MF, there could be NORDO aircraft operating in the circuit.

Personally, the whole NORDO thing scares the hell out of me...
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by rookiepilot »

linecrew wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:35 pm
"...if everybody is communicating properly,..."

Personally, the whole NORDO thing scares the hell out of me...
Uh....yeah. Me too. This subject comes up every so often, and the tone expressed is (too often) everyone else is supposed to be on guard for that lone potential NORDO aircraft out there.

Let me tell you, at my U/C home field and I suspect many others in southern Canada, on a nice day there might be 5 or 6 aircraft in the circuit, arriving or departing at the same time. Trying to keep track of their positions visually and by radio is busy enough.

To NORDO: don't think for a second you're first on my mind or anyone else's, and don't even think you have priority entering a busy circuit like that. Bluntly, --- be wise. Can afford a nice NORDO machine....can afford a decent handheld.

Insist on NORDO, better make darn sure you as the non communicator are safely clear of everyone else.

Legal, doesn't ever mean good airmanship.
---------- ADS -----------
 
B208
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by B208 »

All this talk about radio calls....

Radios don’t prevent collisions, your fucking eyeballs prevent collisions; so use them.
---------- ADS -----------
 
jakeandelwood
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:45 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by jakeandelwood »

rookiepilot wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:50 pm
linecrew wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:35 pm
"...if everybody is communicating properly,..."

Personally, the whole NORDO thing scares the hell out of me...
Uh....yeah. Me too. This subject comes up every so often, and the tone expressed is (too often) everyone else is supposed to be on guard for that lone potential NORDO aircraft out there.

Let me tell you, at my U/C home field and I suspect many others in southern Canada, on a nice day there might be 5 or 6 aircraft in the circuit, arriving or departing at the same time. Trying to keep track of their positions visually and by radio is busy enough.

To NORDO: don't think for a second you're first on my mind or anyone else's, and don't even think you have priority entering a busy circuit like that. Bluntly, --- be wise. Can afford a nice NORDO machine....can afford a decent handheld.

Insist on NORDO, better make darn sure you as the non communicator are safely clear of everyone else.

Legal, doesn't ever mean good airmanship.
I can't even really believe there are idiots that fly around without a radio and feel perfectly content about it, especially when you can buy a nice handheld that'll plug into a cig lighter and also has a headset adapter, you can even use one of those portable car jumpstarters as a power source if your plane doesn't have an electrical system. I'd be scared to death flying around without a radio.
---------- ADS -----------
 
BGH
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:12 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by BGH »

You can have a whole rack of radios & if they’re not turned on it won’t prevent anything.
Back in the early 80’s I was landing at Nimpo & even after all the calls some idiot flew right underneath me without saying a damn word.I did the go around & then after landing tied up behind him at Duncan’s dock,looked in the plane to find a whole ifr rack - told the guy it was a fn shame that none of them worked.
Only my eyes prevented me from leaving keel marks across the top of his 185 & yes it was that close.

Daryl
---------- ADS -----------
 
A346Dude
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by A346Dude »

B208 wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:34 pm All this talk about radio calls....

Radios don’t prevent collisions, your fucking eyeballs prevent collisions; so use them.
If only you knew how many planes you’ve got really close to and never even saw.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”