Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

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PlanePaully
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by PlanePaully » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:40 am

waterdog wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:52 pm
Having engaged in a recent FB discussion with the Ottawa based pilots I actually think the problem is a lot more basic than needing ADSB. What became evident in the discussion was that at CARP some pilots are talking to Terminal as they are approaching the airspace and others are doing circuits are on the appropriate ATF. All of this is very normal and happens all the time at all kinds of airports. The problem that became evident was that there is a lot of confusion on appropriate radio transmissions and when. Some pilots were adamant that the reporting obligation was 5 miles from the airport. This has been confused from what is required under CARS and as recommended in the AIM that you report 5 minutes out. Big difference. I think that given this accident and the fact the Buttonville is losing its tower and becoming a MF, Transport Canada would do well to hold some refresher courses on some basic radio calls and their requirements under the rules. Some pilots seem to be under the impression that if they are on with Terminal they have to stay with ATC and are under no obligation to make a radio call on the MF or ATF of the airport they are headed to. In a slow bug smasher this isn't often a problem, but when you mix in a faster twin or some faster planes this becomes a problem very very quickly. This is by no means a problem specific to CARP but I think an indication of a much bigger problem that we have forgotten some of the basics and some radio refresher is in order.
Totally agree with this idea! People get rusty, and refreshers are a good idea. Buttonville Flying Club had someone speak about MF procedures at a recent meeting. Guy said that a lot of people get confused about the 5 minutes rule: It is specifically five minutes from the edge of the zone, not the airport. If you are in a 172 or similar, that means something like 15 miles back. That presents a logistical problem for all traffic headed north from the Island. By the time YTZ Tower cuts you loose, you are typically closer than that.
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photofly
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by photofly » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:49 am

It’s not really an issue. The rule is to transmit before entering the MF area and where circumstances permit five minutes before entering the MF area. (602.101) So if it’s not feasible to give five minutes notice, you don’t have to.

I hope your flying club person made that clear.

You could even broadcast on the MF frequency while on the ground queuing for take off clearance at CYTZ.
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pelmet
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by pelmet » Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:07 pm

Quite a bit of damage to the PA-42 from the collision....

"C-FCSL, a privately operated Piper PA-42 aircraft, was approaching Ottawa/Carp (CYRP), ON under visual flight rules (VFR) with 1 pilot and 1 passenger on board. C-FGMZ, a privately operated Cessna 150G aircraft, was also operating in the vicinity of CYRP with only the pilot on board. At approximately 1010 EST, both aircraft collided while they were in the circuit within the downwind area for Runway 28. One of the wings of the Cessna 150G was partially severed, which rendered the aircraft uncontrollable. The aircraft impacted the ground, and there was a post impact fire. The pilot was fatally injured, and the aircraft was destroyed. The pilot of C-FCSL notified ATC, and diverted to Ottawa/Macdonald-Cartier Intl (CYOW), ON where the aircraft landed successfully on Runway 32. C-FCSL sustained damage to the wings, main landing gear, aft fuselage and rudder. The weather conditions at the time of the accident was a few clouds, and a visibility of 20 sm. The TSB is investigating."
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FlyGy
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by FlyGy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:56 pm

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broken_slinky
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by broken_slinky » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:17 am

FlyGy wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:56 pm
The Cheyenne is for sale

https://www.ironplanet.com/jsp/s/item/2 ... n&src=mktg
Wow, look at the damage to the Cheyenne in the photos.
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Mick G
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Mick G » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:37 am

How much is it?
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Oldguystrtn2fly
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Oldguystrtn2fly » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:10 pm

Looks like a sealed bid auction. Only one way to find out what it will sell for.
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05480213
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by 05480213 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm

As a person who flies IFR into an uncontrolled airport regularly, I can monitor the unicom well before I enter the control zone, while still on centre and if everybody is communicating properly, I pretty much know where to look for traffic.
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FlyGy
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by FlyGy » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:07 am

05480213 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm
As a person who flies IFR into an uncontrolled airport regularly, I can monitor the unicom well before I enter the control zone, while still on centre and if everybody is communicating properly, I pretty much know where to look for traffic.
Isn't that just common sense? Whether I'm VFR or IFR I'm always listening to unicom when I get within 30 miles of my destination as well as the unicom of any airports I may pass near while enroute, even if I'm well clear of the zone.
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linecrew
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by linecrew » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:35 pm

05480213 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:23 pm
As a person who flies IFR into an uncontrolled airport regularly, I can monitor the unicom well before I enter the control zone, while still on centre and if everybody is communicating properly, I pretty much know where to look for traffic.
"...if everybody is communicating properly,..."
This is the important part, right here. Also note that if it is an ATF, and not an MF, there could be NORDO aircraft operating in the circuit.

Personally, the whole NORDO thing scares the hell out of me...
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:50 pm

linecrew wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:35 pm

"...if everybody is communicating properly,..."

Personally, the whole NORDO thing scares the hell out of me...
Uh....yeah. Me too. This subject comes up every so often, and the tone expressed is (too often) everyone else is supposed to be on guard for that lone potential NORDO aircraft out there.

Let me tell you, at my U/C home field and I suspect many others in southern Canada, on a nice day there might be 5 or 6 aircraft in the circuit, arriving or departing at the same time. Trying to keep track of their positions visually and by radio is busy enough.

To NORDO: don't think for a second you're first on my mind or anyone else's, and don't even think you have priority entering a busy circuit like that. Bluntly, --- be wise. Can afford a nice NORDO machine....can afford a decent handheld.

Insist on NORDO, better make darn sure you as the non communicator are safely clear of everyone else.

Legal, doesn't ever mean good airmanship.
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by B208 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:34 pm

All this talk about radio calls....

Radios don’t prevent collisions, your fucking eyeballs prevent collisions; so use them.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by jakeandelwood » Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:15 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:50 pm
linecrew wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:35 pm

"...if everybody is communicating properly,..."

Personally, the whole NORDO thing scares the hell out of me...
Uh....yeah. Me too. This subject comes up every so often, and the tone expressed is (too often) everyone else is supposed to be on guard for that lone potential NORDO aircraft out there.

Let me tell you, at my U/C home field and I suspect many others in southern Canada, on a nice day there might be 5 or 6 aircraft in the circuit, arriving or departing at the same time. Trying to keep track of their positions visually and by radio is busy enough.

To NORDO: don't think for a second you're first on my mind or anyone else's, and don't even think you have priority entering a busy circuit like that. Bluntly, --- be wise. Can afford a nice NORDO machine....can afford a decent handheld.

Insist on NORDO, better make darn sure you as the non communicator are safely clear of everyone else.

Legal, doesn't ever mean good airmanship.
I can't even really believe there are idiots that fly around without a radio and feel perfectly content about it, especially when you can buy a nice handheld that'll plug into a cig lighter and also has a headset adapter, you can even use one of those portable car jumpstarters as a power source if your plane doesn't have an electrical system. I'd be scared to death flying around without a radio.
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BGH
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by BGH » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:05 pm

You can have a whole rack of radios & if they’re not turned on it won’t prevent anything.
Back in the early 80’s I was landing at Nimpo & even after all the calls some idiot flew right underneath me without saying a damn word.I did the go around & then after landing tied up behind him at Duncan’s dock,looked in the plane to find a whole ifr rack - told the guy it was a fn shame that none of them worked.
Only my eyes prevented me from leaving keel marks across the top of his 185 & yes it was that close.

Daryl
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by A346Dude » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:57 pm

B208 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:34 pm
All this talk about radio calls....

Radios don’t prevent collisions, your fucking eyeballs prevent collisions; so use them.
If only you knew how many planes you’ve got really close to and never even saw.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by corethatthermal » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:38 pm

By the time YTZ Tower cuts you loose, you are typically closer than that
This is where 2 radios and an audio panel/ switch comes in! Listen to one, broadcast and listen on another!
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Donald
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Donald » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:14 pm

With the speed at which avionics and the regs are evolving, how long until TCAS is mandated for all aircraft?
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Schooner69A
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Schooner69A » Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:31 pm

In this day and age, flying around without the ability to communicate is like self abuse in a house of ill repute... :P
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DanWEC
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by DanWEC » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:23 pm

You can add me to the list of people who have almost scraped metal in midair around Carp. The Practice area encompasses airspace above and around YRP, and has an MF clearly marked on the VTA and VNC, and which most everyone who flys out of YRP would hopefully know about unless they're a special kind of stupid.
I was flying maybe 5-10 miles away from YRP at a few thousand feet with a student, when suddenly some toolbox in the Grob went overtop of me by about 50 feet on climbout from YRP, well into the practice area airspace, with zero calls. Didn't see us because of their nose high attitude. I made a bunch of rants on all 3 frequencies and no response whatsoever. Just flying around dumb and blind.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:05 am

Not picking on anybody in particular, but people have to remember radios serve two functions. They can be listened to as well. I've lost count the number of times I've heard somebody make a beautiful radio call, then completely ignore somebody else trying to respond to them.
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by linecrew » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:26 am

B208 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:34 pm
All this talk about radio calls....

Radios don’t prevent collisions, your fucking eyeballs prevent collisions; so use them.
Radios will give you a better situational awareness to augment the use of just your eyeballs. Why not make things safer?
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B208
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by B208 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:44 pm

A346Dude wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:57 pm
B208 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:34 pm
All this talk about radio calls....

Radios don’t prevent collisions, your fucking eyeballs prevent collisions; so use them.
If only you knew how many planes you’ve got really close to and never even saw.
Son, if someone needs a radio call to prompt them to start looking for traffic, they are a bad pilot.

I don’t know if I’ve ever come close to hitting someone that I never saw,( I did @#$! up horribly once during fighting wing and got a real close view of lead going by me opposite direction), but if I have, the radio would not have made any real difference.
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B208
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by B208 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:25 pm

linecrew wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:26 am
B208 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:34 pm
All this talk about radio calls....

Radios don’t prevent collisions, your fucking eyeballs prevent collisions; so use them.
Radios will give you a better situational awareness to augment the use of just your eyeballs. Why not make things safer?
You have hit the nail on the head, radios augment SA. Unfortunately, people seem to have come to rely on radios for collision avoidance at the cost of maintaining a good look out.

The collision which is the subject of this thread was not caused by poor radio work. It was caused by poor look out.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by jakeandelwood » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:36 pm

And then there is those lean of peak idiots that spend the majority of there flight staring at their fancy multi bar graph engine analyzers trying to squeeze one less gallon per hour from their engine while they maybe should be taking a glance outside for traffic once and a while.
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Schooner69A
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Re: Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

Post by Schooner69A » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:47 pm

I had a discussion some time ago with a FKIA who wouldn't admit that a radio was a great augmentation to the Mark 1 eyeball.
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