Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

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pelmet
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Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#1 Post by pelmet » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:45 am

That's what I say several times on final...sometimes too many times. Sometimes even mistakenly in a fixed wing. It is no guarantee but that is what I say. I also tend to work on selecting it down the first time I think about once in the airport area. No guarantees that I won't forget on the next flight but that is what I do anyways(and I have a bad habit of forgetting things). Any other suggestions.

https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/gear-landing/

“Ask anyone who ever flew a retractable gear airplane, and they’ve probably heard the old saying: There are those who have, and those who will, have a gear-up landing. I contend that by practicing a few simple techniques it’s possible to avoid the traps and become one of those who won’t land with the wheels retracted.

Except for the extremely rare mechanical failures that prevent normal or emergency gear extension, landing gear-up is the result of pilot distraction. We can’t avoid the numerous distractions that can happen in the airport environment. But there is one thing, if you do it every time, that will keep you from making a gear-up landing.

Double-check gear position on final approach!

No matter what you did or did not do earlier in the pattern, this is your last-ditch check to ensure the gear is down. Develop a habit of checking landing gear position as you line up on final approach. I use full flap extension as a reminder to check the landing gear. Other pilots routinely check gear position at 500 feet above ground level. Whatever you use as a trigger, practice this final-approach gear check enough that it becomes a firm habit.

If you find yourself on final within 500 feet of the ground with the landing gear still up, go around, climb to pattern altitude and fly another approach. You may not have time to fully extend the gear from less than 500 feet above ground level.

There are several other techniques that help assure you’ll be one of those who won’t have a gear-up landing. But using the final approach gear check will protect you from the distraction that so frequently results in a gear-up landing.”
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#2 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:40 pm

“Ask anyone who ever flew a retractable gear airplane, and they’ve probably heard the old saying: There are those who have, and those who will, have a gear-up landing.
That saying is pure B.S.

At what point in the approach and landing do you select props fine?

I personally leave them in cruise pitch until I close the throttle/'s just prior to touch down.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#3 Post by porcsord » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:57 pm

What about a balked landing? Vehicle incursion on the runway and you want to go around? Getting ready to use reverse? Landing in a short strip and wanting more drag? Just use common sense and personally, it would be sometime well before the flair. On most turboprops I've flown it's the FAF inbound. When I do offstrip/float work in the mountains it's usually during descent below the peaks (mostly because I like the option of full power or full drag). On small singles (c206) I used to bring it forward at the point where it doesn't make a noticeable volume or acceleration change, but again it's a variable depending on where I'm taking it.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#4 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:26 pm

What about a balked landing?


I do a normal missed approach.
Vehicle incursion on the runway and you want to go around?
I do a normal missed approach.
Getting ready to use reverse?
I don't use reverse in the air.
Landing in a short strip and wanting more drag?
Let me think about that for a while, if I can recall a time that my approach speed , attitude, rate of descent and landing configuration were insufficient for the intended landing and I suddenly decided to use the props to correct the situation I'll get back here and describe how I fixed the situation.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#5 Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:37 pm

No need to put props to fine on any aircraft at any power setting where the prop is still on the governor vs the low pitch stop.

It's pretty easy to put the prop levers forward during a go around.

Rarely do you ever need full reverse into any strip you can get out of, and usually the short and gravel strips are ones you don't want to use reverse on, anyways. Not if you value your props, flaps, fuselage skins, and whatnot.

Our company SOPs state to put props fine after touchdown.

I've never needed the extra drag of fine props to get me down over mountains, and there are considerably high ones in the places I operate. My plane is a lot slipperier than any float plane.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#6 Post by oldtimer » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:06 pm

Every AFM in every airplane with a constant speed propeller I have ever flown calls for the propeller controls to be advanced to maximum RPM prior to landing. It is the adaptations of individual checklist/procedures individual pilots develop or adhere to where pilots leave the propeller controls in cruise settings until landing. My questions is "Why" because a mistake committed often becomes a procedure. There is no operational procedure that can be improved by leaving the propeller controls in the cruise position until touchdown except for some Pratt and Whitney PT-6 powered airplanes. Those airplanes are slightly quieter on approach plus many marginally skilled/lazy pilots find it easier to make a greaser landing without having to compensate for the slight increase in drag when the power levers are brought to flight idle. Most PT-6 powered airplanes even have a warning light that illuminates when certain conditions are not met. It is called "Reverse Not Ready" and that is a limitation. Pilots are warned to not select reverse thrust until the propeller controls are selected full forward. On any and all Garrett TPE-331 powered airplanes both the AFM and the training manuals all have a serious caution requiring the speed levers be selected to full "speeds high" prior to touchdown to prevent engine damage. Final approach in the final landing stages are or can be a higher workload situation where things can be forgotten. This is not the place to be reading a checklist.
Want a reminder to put the gear down prior to landing, at the FAF, pull the throttles/power levers to flight idle and listen for the horn.
Horn does not work? Get it fixed. No gear horn, put a clothespin on your pecker or some other sensitive piece of your anatomy. I watched a YouTube video where the gear horn in a Cessna 172 Cutlass was blaring away until drowned out by metal scrapping on pavement. My father spent almost a year in the DVA wing of a hospital and one of his room mates was an RCAF tower controller who watched a Harvard land gear up. When asked why the student pilot did not overshoot he said he could not hear the tower instructions because of the loud horn blowing. It takes all kinds.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#7 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:27 pm

Every AFM in every airplane with a constant speed propeller I have ever flown calls for the propeller controls to be advanced to maximum RPM prior to landing.
And that is why I do this.


I personally leave them in cruise pitch until I close the throttle/'s just prior to touch down.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#8 Post by PilotDAR » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:51 pm

But there is one thing, if you do it every time, that will keep you from making a gear-up landing.
Egads! Please don't prevent me from making gear up landings! About one third of my landings are gear up, and so far so good. My practice is to state out loud, two times (one base, the other final): "Wheels are down for landing on land", or: "Wheels are up for landing on water", while I look at the surface I'll land on, look at the wheels, and look at the gear lights.

Pilots have asked my while flying RG landplanes why I include "... for landing on land" in my gear down call. 'Cause I make the same call for any RG plane I fly. I can afford the few extra words, it creates a consistent disciplined check.

I dislike warning systems for landing gear position. At best they are annoyingly distracting, at worse, if not operating properly, they can lure a careless pilot into presuming all is okay.

As for propeller pitch, barring a contrary flight manual procedure, it is my intention to have the prop(s) selected to full fine just before touchdown. When, prior to touchdown I select prop(s) fine depends upon the propeller type, my perception of noise sensitivity below me, and my anticipated workload on short final.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#9 Post by C.W.E. » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:05 pm

I have a very simple gear check that works for every airplane I fly.

" Where am I landing and where is my gear "

So far it has prevented me from landing with the wrong gear position twice.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#10 Post by shimmydampner » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:33 pm

Zaibatsu wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:37 pm

Rarely do you ever need full reverse into any strip you can get out of, and usually the short and gravel strips are ones you don't want to use reverse on, anyways. Not if you value your props, flaps, fuselage skins, and whatnot.
I've been in and out of plenty of spots that warranted the use of full reverse when doing STOL work. Comes in pretty handy doing ski work above the tree line too.
Everywhere I've worked and on all the types I've flown it's always been SOP to go full fine on approach. Can't really think of a compelling reason to not comply. Comes straight from the manufacturer for some.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#11 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:56 am

Everywhere I've worked and on all the types I've flown it's always been SOP to go full fine on approach. Can't really think of a compelling reason to not comply. Comes straight from the manufacturer for some.
There is no argument that the props should be in full fine before landing although you can fly for hundreds of years and never select full fine as long as you do not have to use climb or full power to go around.

Like most things in aviation there is room for choice as long as your choice does not degrade safety or go against the manufacturers operating instructions.

So we are back to the question of at what point in the approach / before landing do you increase the prop RPM to full fine?

As to compelling reason to wait until I close the throttles just prior to touch down I do it because it works for me and so far I have never had a reason to believe it is unsafe. Now I admit that is not " compelling " but it is a choice that has worked just fine for me for many thousands of landings.

Actually it would be interesting to know how many landings I made in the fire suppression business , especially on the water.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#12 Post by co-joe » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:06 pm

I do a "Gear, Prop, Wind, and Clearance" mantra to myself. Every landing, regardless of how sure I am. I usually do it as I'm about to slow to Vref.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#13 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:24 pm

I usually do it as I'm about to slow to Vref.
Excellent.

Having a point in the approach for the last mental reminder of critical items is the way to never forget the items.

My point in the approach is turning final.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#14 Post by JasonE » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:54 pm

I am still reasonably new to retractable. I drop the gear when I am abeam the threshold in the downwind (in theory runway made), and check it again on final. Prop goes forward when the RPM is well below the state of being governed, always before touchdown.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#15 Post by shimmydampner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:13 pm

Certainly not disagreeing with you Chuck, in fact, I used to do the very same myself when I had a job with a bit more "artistic liberty" you might say. Just pointing out that sometimes an operator or manufacturer might call for it on approach. I actually liked having the props fine for approach when flying turbine off strip and skis, as I pointed out. I found I had more fine control over my speed and descent rate and obviously had reverse available immediately on touch down without having to dick around short final when I was highly focused on the task at hand.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#16 Post by C.W.E. » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:21 pm

Was it a twin otter?
"artistic liberty"
I like that description.

It off sets " SOP's " better known as " Paint by numbers flying. "
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#17 Post by PilotDAR » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:05 pm

I usually do it as I'm about to slow to Vref.
Yeah... that won't really work for me, my amphib pretty well cruises at Vref.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#18 Post by valleyboy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:27 am

That saying is pure B.S.

At what point in the approach and landing do you select props fine?

I personally leave them in cruise pitch until I close the throttle/'s just prior to touch down.
I'm with you on that - first, in a G/A on a prop a/c I hope one always goes pitch/power and it's so simple to push props up in the flair or on touch down (if you even have prop controls)

My reasoning goes right back to float flying. I would always land in cruse pitch for 2 reasons , passenger comfort and transition to step taxi you were not there with low manifold pressure and high RPM making a lot of noise and not going anywhere.

For larger aircraft it was always customer comfort and piece of mind and treating big radials with respect and with the turbines it was just passenger comfort and yes there are always exceptions
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#19 Post by porcsord » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:47 pm

Well Shit, I care about passenger comfort as much as the next guy, might as well do all my take offs in coarse pitch, I mean, it will be quieter and more comfortable for the passengers.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#20 Post by bobcaygeon » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:40 pm

Classic Dash 8 (Pratt's) 900 RPM (same as cruise) is the normal landing setting for the props where I work. Landing distance is rarely an issue and if you fly the plane properly it doesn't really make a difference. 1050 is recommended for turbulence and wind gust conditions. 1200 RPM (Full fine) is almost never used. i used it once but I was landing on the "short" runway. Landing with higher than 900 just makes a lot of noise and lots more power required to keep the speed up.

We also almost never landed with full flap (35) instead landing with 15. Flap 35 is rarely necessary performance wise and makes you so slow relative to other traffic in the sequence unless they're doing departures on the same runway. They can get many out before we get there.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#21 Post by digits_ » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:42 pm

porcsord wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:47 pm
Well Shit, I care about passenger comfort as much as the next guy, might as well do all my take offs in coarse pitch, I mean, it will be quieter and more comfortable for the passengers.
Better yet, do it single engine, even less noise. And you know you are only flying on one engine, so no risky unexpected V1 cut!
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#22 Post by C.W.E. » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:09 pm

Well Shit, I care about passenger comfort as much as the next guy, might as well do all my take offs in coarse pitch, I mean, it will be quieter and more comfortable for the passengers.
You are responding to the wrong subject.

This discussion is about landings, not take offs.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#23 Post by porcsord » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:27 pm

I'd argue a missed approach is essentially a take off.
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#24 Post by C.W.E. » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:45 pm

I'd argue a missed approach is essentially a take off

Well I guess you and I have very different understandings of aircraft phases of flight.

When taking off I start from zero speed, during a missed approach I start with the proper approach speed for the machine I am flying .

For take off I use full fine pitch at the start of the take off.

During a missed approach I use climb RPM and climb RPM is not full RPM on any aircraft I have ever flown.

By the way what type of aircraft do you fly that requires full fine pitch on a normal missed approach?
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Re: Gear's Down - Prop's Fine

#25 Post by jakeandelwood » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:18 am

porcsord wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:47 pm
Well Shit, I care about passenger comfort as much as the next guy, might as well do all my take offs in coarse pitch, I mean, it will be quieter and more comfortable for the passengers.
Ha, I like that answer, or you could just leave the props full fine all the time, the passengers won't even know how quiet the plane COULD be.
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