Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

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jpilot77
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#51 Post by jpilot77 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:53 am

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:15 am

Weather was VFR. ATC vectors for visual 23 or 32 would have be more wise.

8 sm and 1200' ceiling is VFR. One wouldn't even have to request Special VFR to enter the zone with that reported weather.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#52 Post by DanWEC » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Could have just flown at 1000' from KORD, but then drop down to 700 in the zone in order to stay 500 below the deck, right Roadrunnersmother? But then how do you cross over the field and join mid-downwind of you aren't at 1000 agl? A real quandary. I wish I was a pilot.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#53 Post by lostaviator » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:12 pm

Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:15 am
Diadem wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:41 am
Roadrunnersmother wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:14 am
Weather was VFR. ATC vectors for visual 23 or 32 would have be more wise.
lostaviator wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:45 am


If you google metar history there’s a website that stores every report.

From a speci minutes after the accident:

230-11-g18. 8sm. -RA BR. SCT005. BKN012. 13/13
Maybe this is why no one will hire you...
8 sm and 1200' ceiling is VFR. One wouldn't even have to request Special VFR to enter the zone with that reported weather.


Let’s assume special vfr was an option for them. Please explain how they would legally descend from a cruise altitude and enter vfr conditions below the layer ?
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#54 Post by ant_321 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:59 pm

Even if they were visual, what are the chances their SOP’s would allow a night visual approach with no intrument guidance.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#55 Post by youhavecontrol » Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 pm

Special VFR sounds insane, but what about a circling approach? Would that even be a possibility in a B747? I'm guessing not just based on how massive they are.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#56 Post by telex » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:19 pm

youhavecontrol wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 pm
Special VFR sounds insane, but what about a circling approach? Would that even be a possibility in a B747? I'm guessing not just based on how massive they are.
It can be done but night circling in an OM will be covered and might be forbidden.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#57 Post by lostaviator » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:28 pm

telex wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:19 pm
youhavecontrol wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 pm
Special VFR sounds insane, but what about a circling approach? Would that even be a possibility in a B747? I'm guessing not just based on how massive they are.
It can be done but night circling in an OM will be covered and might be forbidden.
I have yet to work for an airline that allows circling approaches at circling minima. There is usually some kind of add 500 feet or make the FAF crossing your MDA kind of stuff. Though, circling a 747 would be kinda "fun"?

Side note... The weather I posted from the speci taken post accident was better then the hourly which had the SCT005 layer as a BKN005 layer. So we can probably stop talking about the whole "special vfr", circling stuff. Even if they COULD, the information they had at the time meant they had to a straight in to something.

And that runway.... It is one of the those runways that I am always extra attentive too after a long day, or long red eye. Short, sloped and we all know how the winds work around there.... a 10 knot tail wind component on the surface could very well be a 40 knot tailwind component until 50 feet.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#58 Post by youhavecontrol » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:38 pm

lostaviator wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:28 pm
...could very well be a 40 knot tailwind component until 50 feet.
Now that I think about it... around the time of that accident, I was supposed to fly to Sydney and was looking at the GFA's which had a low level jet almost right over Halifax... moving East. The jet was 70kts with forecast moderate to severe turbulence and was supposed to be directly over Sydney at the time I was expected to arrive there. I certainly would not be surprised if wind shear was a factor. I saw the GFA and thought "nope" and changed my route.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#59 Post by swordfish » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:50 pm

HiFlyChick wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm
swordfish wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:09 pm
In the photographs available, the gear is not visible. Was the gear DOWN? begging the question that how did all 4 get wiped off.
There's an aerial pic in this article:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.4895103

Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters - wiping out 4 landing gears and breaking the fuselage.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#60 Post by swordfish » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm

HiFlyChick wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm
[quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#61 Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:20 pm

All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters
Wouldn't they be picking up lobsters in Halifax, not delivering them?
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#62 Post by aeroncasuperchief » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:20 pm

"All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters - wiping out 4 landing gears and breaking the fuselage."


Shaken, not stirred! Must have had some Chinese ware on board to supply the local Walmart to make it a productive inbound ?
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#63 Post by HiFlyChick » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:52 pm

swordfish wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm
HiFlyChick wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm
[quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
I was wondering that myself - best guess is that it folded backwards but stayed attached for long enough that it's underneath the fuselage...? I can't imagine it would stay on (attached in the usual manner) and yet bury itself that far into the turf
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#64 Post by A346Dude » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:49 am

Even with the “better” 1200 ft ceiling after the accident, a visual approach was completely out of the question as ATC minimums for a visual are much higher than 1200 ft (these minimums are not published). A contact approach would have been a legal option, but I will not comment as to the wisdom of a contact approach in a 747 under those conditions.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#65 Post by JasonE » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:00 am

Look for lobster on sale at Walmart this week, since they couldn't get to China timely!
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#66 Post by Pavese » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:30 am

HiFlyChick wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:52 pm
swordfish wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm
HiFlyChick wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm
[quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
I was wondering that myself - best guess is that it folded backwards but stayed attached for long enough that it's underneath the fuselage...? I can't imagine it would stay on (attached in the usual manner) and yet bury itself that far into the turf
There is a lot of debris balled up around the aft end and in this photo you see one of the gear trucks at the very left:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 0a1b07.jpg

I think HFC is right, the rest is back there somewhere with the antenna array, lights and a few other things that'll have to be replaced.

The TSB photos don't show much of the gear:

https://flic.kr/p/NYmGtP

Even with their misfortune, the crew was really lucky they stopped where they did, if they had made it to the road the stop wouldn't have been quite as gentle. You don't see it but there's a fair slope down into the ditch between the fence & the road.

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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#67 Post by Pavese » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:48 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:20 pm
All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters
Wouldn't they be picking up lobsters in Halifax, not delivering them?
Yup, the importer has an office at YHZ.

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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#68 Post by ReserveTank » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:32 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:28 am
tbayav8er wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:56 am
but I wonder what the LNAV minimums are. ~8500 ft available for landing on 23 even with the construction and 18 kts on the nose as opposed to 7500' and no headwind
I checked the plates. There are many variables, don’t know what their equipment and ops specs allow. Plus, one would also need to see the Notams, in case these modified the published minimums.
Grapevine says that they weren't allowed RNAV per Ops Specs.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#69 Post by goingnowherefast » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:28 pm

I wonder if they'll eventually realize that GPS approaches are quite often the safest approach available. TC is making the industry less safe by the cumbersome process operators are required to undergo to gain GPS and LPV approach approval.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#70 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm

Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

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NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#71 Post by Eric Janson » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:21 pm

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm
Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
If the only useable approach has a tailwind component the exceeds the maximum then it's time to find another airport imho.

Unclear if landing performance was calculated but when this is marginal you have to be on speed and touch down at the correct point. High speed/long landing is a go-around.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#72 Post by rookiepilot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:35 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:21 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm
Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
If the only useable approach has a tailwind component the exceeds the maximum then it's time to find another airport imho.

Unclear if landing performance was calculated but when this is marginal you have to be on speed and touch down at the correct point. High speed/long landing is a go-around.
I get it, always pilots responsibility.

When I look at YHZ I don't see a world class airport, I see compromise.

Strange for an airport that regularly sees heavies landing there.

Why is this?

Does one fly into Dubai (I haven't looked) and 2 of 4 runways don't have an ILS? JFK?
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#73 Post by HiFlyChick » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:54 pm

Putting in more ILSs at this point in time would be as foolish as TC deciding in the last few years to push SCDA approaches. Pre-GPS would've been the time to push SCDA, and pre-GPS would've been the time to install more ILSs (not that I necessarily agree that they should have more ILSs). If operators won't spend the money to upgrade their technology to stuff that's been around for decades, then they should expect to spend the money when their aircraft have to go to their alternate (that the pilot's didn't go to the alternate is another problem altogether).
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#74 Post by Eric Janson » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:24 am

rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:35 pm
Eric Janson wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:21 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm
Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
If the only useable approach has a tailwind component the exceeds the maximum then it's time to find another airport imho.

Unclear if landing performance was calculated but when this is marginal you have to be on speed and touch down at the correct point. High speed/long landing is a go-around.
I get it, always pilots responsibility.

When I look at YHZ I don't see a world class airport, I see compromise.

Strange for an airport that regularly sees heavies landing there.

Why is this?

Does one fly into Dubai (I haven't looked) and 2 of 4 runways don't have an ILS? JFK?
Agree with you about Halifax - the ILS should be on 32 imho. Adding a few thousand feet would be a good idea as well imho.

Dubai has ILS on all 4 runways.

JFK is a poor example - it's like a Third World Airport. Fly an offset VOR/DME approach for 22L.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

#75 Post by rookiepilot » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:08 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:24 am

Agree with you about Halifax - the ILS should be on 32 imho. Adding a few thousand feet would be a good idea as well imho.

Dubai has ILS on all 4 runways.

JFK is a poor example - it's like a Third World Airport. Fly an offset VOR/DME approach for 22L.
I'm thinking of Halifax weather too in my comments.
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