Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

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DanWEC
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by DanWEC »

Could have just flown at 1000' from KORD, but then drop down to 700 in the zone in order to stay 500 below the deck, right Roadrunnersmother? But then how do you cross over the field and join mid-downwind of you aren't at 1000 agl? A real quandary. I wish I was a pilot.
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lostaviator
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by lostaviator »

Roadrunnersmother wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:15 am
Diadem wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:41 am
Roadrunnersmother wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:14 am Weather was VFR. ATC vectors for visual 23 or 32 would have be more wise.
lostaviator wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:45 am

If you google metar history there’s a website that stores every report.

From a speci minutes after the accident:

230-11-g18. 8sm. -RA BR. SCT005. BKN012. 13/13
Maybe this is why no one will hire you...
8 sm and 1200' ceiling is VFR. One wouldn't even have to request Special VFR to enter the zone with that reported weather.


Let’s assume special vfr was an option for them. Please explain how they would legally descend from a cruise altitude and enter vfr conditions below the layer ?
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ant_321
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by ant_321 »

Even if they were visual, what are the chances their SOP’s would allow a night visual approach with no intrument guidance.
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youhavecontrol
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by youhavecontrol »

Special VFR sounds insane, but what about a circling approach? Would that even be a possibility in a B747? I'm guessing not just based on how massive they are.
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telex
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by telex »

youhavecontrol wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 pm Special VFR sounds insane, but what about a circling approach? Would that even be a possibility in a B747? I'm guessing not just based on how massive they are.
It can be done but night circling in an OM will be covered and might be forbidden.
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lostaviator
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by lostaviator »

telex wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:19 pm
youhavecontrol wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:33 pm Special VFR sounds insane, but what about a circling approach? Would that even be a possibility in a B747? I'm guessing not just based on how massive they are.
It can be done but night circling in an OM will be covered and might be forbidden.
I have yet to work for an airline that allows circling approaches at circling minima. There is usually some kind of add 500 feet or make the FAF crossing your MDA kind of stuff. Though, circling a 747 would be kinda "fun"?

Side note... The weather I posted from the speci taken post accident was better then the hourly which had the SCT005 layer as a BKN005 layer. So we can probably stop talking about the whole "special vfr", circling stuff. Even if they COULD, the information they had at the time meant they had to a straight in to something.

And that runway.... It is one of the those runways that I am always extra attentive too after a long day, or long red eye. Short, sloped and we all know how the winds work around there.... a 10 knot tail wind component on the surface could very well be a 40 knot tailwind component until 50 feet.
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youhavecontrol
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by youhavecontrol »

lostaviator wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:28 pm ...could very well be a 40 knot tailwind component until 50 feet.
Now that I think about it... around the time of that accident, I was supposed to fly to Sydney and was looking at the GFA's which had a low level jet almost right over Halifax... moving East. The jet was 70kts with forecast moderate to severe turbulence and was supposed to be directly over Sydney at the time I was expected to arrive there. I certainly would not be surprised if wind shear was a factor. I saw the GFA and thought "nope" and changed my route.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by swordfish »

HiFlyChick wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm
swordfish wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:09 pm In the photographs available, the gear is not visible. Was the gear DOWN? begging the question that how did all 4 get wiped off.
There's an aerial pic in this article:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.4895103

Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters - wiping out 4 landing gears and breaking the fuselage.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by swordfish »

HiFlyChick wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm [quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by C.W.E. »

All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters
Wouldn't they be picking up lobsters in Halifax, not delivering them?
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by aeroncasuperchief »

"All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters - wiping out 4 landing gears and breaking the fuselage."


Shaken, not stirred! Must have had some Chinese ware on board to supply the local Walmart to make it a productive inbound ?
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by HiFlyChick »

swordfish wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm
HiFlyChick wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm [quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
I was wondering that myself - best guess is that it folded backwards but stayed attached for long enough that it's underneath the fuselage...? I can't imagine it would stay on (attached in the usual manner) and yet bury itself that far into the turf
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by A346Dude »

Even with the “better” 1200 ft ceiling after the accident, a visual approach was completely out of the question as ATC minimums for a visual are much higher than 1200 ft (these minimums are not published). A contact approach would have been a legal option, but I will not comment as to the wisdom of a contact approach in a 747 under those conditions.
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JasonE
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by JasonE »

Look for lobster on sale at Walmart this week, since they couldn't get to China timely!
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Pavese »

HiFlyChick wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:52 pm
swordfish wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm
HiFlyChick wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm [quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
I was wondering that myself - best guess is that it folded backwards but stayed attached for long enough that it's underneath the fuselage...? I can't imagine it would stay on (attached in the usual manner) and yet bury itself that far into the turf
There is a lot of debris balled up around the aft end and in this photo you see one of the gear trucks at the very left:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 0a1b07.jpg

I think HFC is right, the rest is back there somewhere with the antenna array, lights and a few other things that'll have to be replaced.

The TSB photos don't show much of the gear:

https://flic.kr/p/NYmGtP

Even with their misfortune, the crew was really lucky they stopped where they did, if they had made it to the road the stop wouldn't have been quite as gentle. You don't see it but there's a fair slope down into the ditch between the fence & the road.

Image

D 8)
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Pavese »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:20 pm
All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters
Wouldn't they be picking up lobsters in Halifax, not delivering them?
Yup, the importer has an office at YHZ.

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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by ReserveTank »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:28 am
tbayav8er wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:56 am but I wonder what the LNAV minimums are. ~8500 ft available for landing on 23 even with the construction and 18 kts on the nose as opposed to 7500' and no headwind
I checked the plates. There are many variables, don’t know what their equipment and ops specs allow. Plus, one would also need to see the Notams, in case these modified the published minimums.
Grapevine says that they weren't allowed RNAV per Ops Specs.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by goingnowherefast »

I wonder if they'll eventually realize that GPS approaches are quite often the safest approach available. TC is making the industry less safe by the cumbersome process operators are required to undergo to gain GPS and LPV approach approval.
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by rookiepilot »

Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
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Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Eric Janson »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
If the only useable approach has a tailwind component the exceeds the maximum then it's time to find another airport imho.

Unclear if landing performance was calculated but when this is marginal you have to be on speed and touch down at the correct point. High speed/long landing is a go-around.
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