Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

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tps8903
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Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by tps8903 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:14 am

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MUSKEG
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by MUSKEG » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:57 pm

So when does the PIC say shit this isn't right and either abort or push the throttles to the stops. To stagger along for 4 miles is absurd. Are they so bound by SOP's that they can't do this? What ever happened to feeling what the airplane is doing? Never flown that size of aircraft but I would think Captains should realize what's normal and what's not.
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by ogopogo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:09 pm

“The crew did not apply full thrust until the aircraft was approximately 4 km from the end of the runway, at around 800 ft aal.”

Huh?
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JetSetter87
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by JetSetter87 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:18 pm

MUSKEG wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:57 pm
So when does the PIC say shit this isn't right and either abort or push the throttles to the stops. To stagger along for 4 miles is absurd. Are they so bound by SOP's that they can't do this? What ever happened to feeling what the airplane is doing? Never flown that size of aircraft but I would think Captains should realize what's normal and what's not.
Fully agree here..... How bound are you by a power setting....If it dosent feel right firewall that b**** right away!!!! Clearly these guys don't pay attention to the runway length required after they enter the data in the FMS.....
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by rookiepilot » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:23 pm

Andy would love this one.
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by BigQ » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:35 pm

Pressing TOGA without firewalling does nothing... EECs still bound by erroneous OAT inputs into the FMC. Just moves the carets
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Last edited by BigQ on Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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telex
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by telex » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:56 pm

BigQ wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:35 pm
Firewalling without pressing TOGA does nothing... EECs still bound by erroneous OAT inputs into the FMC
Autothrottle might be bound by FMC inputs but manually advancing thrust levers on a Boeing gives more thrust.

EDIT - This is what EECs protect. - EDIT

No mention of erroneous OAT inputs into the FMC. Your reference for such would be appreciated.

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Last edited by telex on Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by daedalusx » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:39 pm

Full AAR report High res
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Hi_Res.pdf

Here's what pisses me off ... How could you not know, that the N1 calculated from the FMS was completely erroneous. It's a 9100' runway so depending on the environmental factors and weights (report suggest 71.9 tons) you'd maybe get a 91-93% N1 with a assumed temperature derate.
Now bring the OAT down to -52 and the FMS spits you out something like 80-82% N1 and it's bugged and it's what the EEC/AT will command and hold.

At this point, how can you not know that this is garbage right there? How little do you know about your own AC's performance that you don't immediately have red flags popping up. From the report, it seems like a well experienced crew so you'd think they would have questioned the data and notice the sluggish takeoff run and climb performance ... I don't operate the NG but I'd love to know from experienced crews here; how often do you takeoff at 81.5% N1 ?
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by digits_ » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:36 pm

JetSetter87 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:18 pm
MUSKEG wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:57 pm
So when does the PIC say shit this isn't right and either abort or push the throttles to the stops. To stagger along for 4 miles is absurd. Are they so bound by SOP's that they can't do this? What ever happened to feeling what the airplane is doing? Never flown that size of aircraft but I would think Captains should realize what's normal and what's not.
Fully agree here..... How bound are you by a power setting....If it dosent feel right firewall that b**** right away!!!! Clearly these guys don't pay attention to the runway length required after they enter the data in the FMS.....
How would the runway length required significantly be affected by the temperature? Isn't the whole point that the computer is smart enough to calculate the required power setting based on the maximum available field length?
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:53 am

ogopogo wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:09 pm
“The crew did not apply full thrust until the aircraft was approximately 4 km from the end of the runway, at around 800 ft aal.”

Huh?

In this accident, there were other factors involved, but the crew, despite noticing improper acceleration, long take off run, stall warning, inability to climb and impending crash, never fire-walled the engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by Go Guns » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:06 am

I might think harder about this in the future, but I can honestly say an 81% N1 takeoff thrust setting wouldn’t seem out of line to me on a quick glance.
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by Eric Janson » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:16 am

Go Guns wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:06 am
I might think harder about this in the future, but I can honestly say an 81% N1 takeoff thrust setting wouldn’t seem out of line to me on a quick glance.
I fly with CFM engines (different aircraft type and -5 engines) and that would certainly seem too low to me. We don't even see 81% in cruise!
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by Jet Jockey » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:08 pm

I have many concerns on this crew and company SOPs...

#1- How can you enter -52C (which requires an extra entry of the minus sign) in the FMC when the actual OAT is +16C? That's a whopping 68C difference!

#2- When initializing their FMCs for the takeoff performance and you enter the numbers (winds, temperature and others), don't their SOPs ask to cross check each other and the numbers entered?

#3- Back to the perf section of the FMC, wouldn't a very low N1 or EPR setting not sound a bell to you?

#4- Again, back to the perf section of the FMC, after the inputs are in, you should get a runway length needed for your takeoff run, so if this number on that day with the perfs they initialised was for argument's sake 4000', wouldn't you ask yourself questions as you are rolling down the runway past the 4000 foot mark and you were no where close to your speeds or already rotating?
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by C.W.E. » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:32 pm

#4 is the one that is most astounding.
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by Go Guns » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:13 pm

Eric Janson wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:16 am
Go Guns wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:06 am
I might think harder about this in the future, but I can honestly say an 81% N1 takeoff thrust setting wouldn’t seem out of line to me on a quick glance.
I fly with CFM engines (different aircraft type and -5 engines) and that would certainly seem too low to me. We don't even see 81% in cruise!
I’ve seen below 80% more than a few times, albeit for some pretty light takeoffs.
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by BigQ » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:00 pm

telex wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:56 pm
BigQ wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:35 pm
Firewalling without pressing TOGA does nothing... EECs still bound by erroneous OAT inputs into the FMC
Autothrottle might be bound by FMC inputs but manually advancing thrust levers on a Boeing gives more thrust.

EDIT - This is what EECs protect. - EDIT

No mention of erroneous OAT inputs into the FMC. Your reference for such would be appreciated.

Image
Correct, I mixed the two up, fixed.
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complexintentions
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by complexintentions » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:32 pm

But I thought only Asian carriers had runway excursions. At least, that's what I read on another thread! :mrgreen:
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Re: Sunwing Runway Overrun - Belfast 2017

Post by iflyforpie » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:34 pm

This wasn’t a runway excursion, it was an impromptu extension. ;)

Seriously though, there’s plenty of things to look at that should tell you things are not right. Don’t assume the FMS AP/AT is going to do it all for you.
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