St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

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golden hawk
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St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

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rookiepilot
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by rookiepilot »

About time.
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anofly
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by anofly »

yes , this will make flying cheaper for all of us...
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by photofly »

One thing it might do is focus the minds of flight schools properly to supervise their trainee instructors.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by photofly »

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 017&akey=1

The instructor/PIC was conducting his first night flight for nearly 10 months. He could not have met the requirements of regulation 401.05 in respect of the carriage at night of the two passengers who died with him.

This was his first ever flight into IMC. And he was doing it from the right seat.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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rookiepilot
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by rookiepilot »

anofly wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:19 pm yes , this will make flying cheaper for all of us...
Gee, priorities right, anyone?
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by JasonE »

``Filed in the same court on the very same day, Oct. 15, the second litigation was brought by Tawfig’s family against the Flying Club, Transport Canada, Inc. of Concord, Ontario, Canada and the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in Washington, D.C.`

I fail to see how Transport Canada and the FAA could be at fault here? Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by Zaibatsu »

The lawyers will make out like bandits, that’s for sure.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by photofly »

JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 pm Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
What a lovely way to talk about a bereaved family.

To answer your question, they will probably suggest a failure of oversight on the part of both governments. Can’t say I blame them.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:26 pm
JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 pm Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
What a lovely way to talk about a bereaved family.
Beat me to it. Such a compassionate comment.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:26 pm
JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 pm Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
What a lovely way to talk about a bereaved family.

To answer your question, they will probably suggest a failure of oversight on the part of both governments. Can’t say I blame them.
They can be bereaved and be gold diggers. It is probably their lawyer that added TC and FAA to the lawsuit, just in case. Not sure how the FAA would even be remotely responsible. And TC? If your information is correct, then the instructor was acting illegally. You can't expect TC to check all licenses before every flight.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by rookiepilot »

digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:56 pm
photofly wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:26 pm
JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 pm Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
What a lovely way to talk about a bereaved family.
They can be bereaved and be gold diggers.
I'm sure they arranged things so their son could die, just so they could launch a frivolous lawsuit. Got it.

No different to you than someone who sues because the airline won't allow them their emotional pet ostrich on board, right? :roll:
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:56 pm You can't expect TC to check all licenses before every flight.
I don’t know what TC did or didn’t do in this case, and I haven’t read the statement of claim, yet.

But generally speaking, nothing happens in a vacuum. The instructor undertook a flight that he should not have, the flight school (which had a duty to supervise) permitted a flight it should not have, and the government, it will probably be argued, which had a duty to make sure the flight school was properly exercising its supervisory responsibility, failed to do that.

Can I expect TC to check licences? No. I can, perhaps, expect TC not to permit the operation of a flight school that doesn’t supervise its instructors. I can, to use your example, expect TC to make sure that no flight school allows flights where licences are not in order. I’m pretty sure that’s what they try to do. It’s not illegitimate to test that in court, now, is it?

When I find out what the FAA is supposed to have done or failed to have done, I’ll let you know.
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Last edited by photofly on Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by lownslow »

JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 pm Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
Sometimes it’s the insurance company that gets the frivolous looking lawsuits going. I suppose the theory is it helps cover the cost of this claim plus ideally can bring about changes to prevent future claims.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

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Is SMS working yet?
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by JasonE »

photofly wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:26 pm
JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 pm I fail to see how Transport Canada and the FAA could be at fault here? Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
What a lovely way to talk about a bereaved family.
I never said I didn't have any compassion for the families, au contraire. I believe it is the PIC's family that have named these governing bodies, not the passengers'.
lownslow wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:53 pm Sometimes it’s the insurance company that gets the frivolous looking lawsuits going. I suppose the theory is it helps cover the cost of this claim plus ideally can bring about changes to prevent future claims.
You could be right. Either way, the governing bodies didn't force anyone to fly into adverse weather. I guess it will be up to the courts to decide now, not us.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:26 pm
JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:28 pm Gold diggers trying any avenue they can I think.
What a lovely way to talk about a bereaved family.

To answer your question, they will probably suggest a failure of oversight on the part of both governments. Can’t say I blame them.
Without discussing this case, there are no shortage of bereaved families that have greedily gone after others when their loved one screwed up and crashed. Being bereaved does not justify creating more victims by sueing innocent people(which includes taxpayers). Similar to my opinion that being a victim of crime does not give you the right to take away due process from others(something we see more and more of from victims these days.)

An example of failing FAA oversight in this case however, would be appreciated.
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Last edited by pelmet on Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by photofly »

JasonE wrote: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:06 pm I never said I didn't have any compassion for the families, au contraire. I believe it is the PIC's family that have named these governing bodies, not the passengers'.
And you see a difference between the pilot's family and the passengers' families?

The pilot was like a 10 year old who found an unsecured gun and shot both himself and his 8 year old cousin dead. Everyone in that plane was a victim.

"operational control means the exercise of authority over the initiation, continuation, diversion or termination of a flight in the interest of the safety of the aircraft and the regularity and efficiency of the flight; (contrôle d’exploitation)"
406.11 (1) Subject to section 6.71 of the Act, the Minister shall, on receipt of an application submitted in the form and manner specified in the personnel licensing standards, issue or amend a flight training unit operator certificate where the applicant demonstrates to the Minister the ability to
(a) maintain an adequate organizational structure;
(b) maintain operational control;
Where was the operational control over this flight?
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by rookiepilot »

Let's talk about greed then.

Isn't it greedy for any flight school to operate these "experience" flights that aren't required nor in any syllabus-- especially irrelevant for pre ppl students.

Flight schools want their aircraft back on time.

Those issues need to be addressed in court, including why TC allows flight schools to operate unnecessary flights of this kind.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: St. Catherines Flying Club - lawsuit re October 16, 2016 fatal crash

Post by Aviatard »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:51 am Let's talk about greed then.

Isn't it greedy for any flight school to operate these "experience" flights that aren't required nor in any syllabus-- especially irrelevant for pre ppl students.
Were the students required to make the flight, or was it optional?
rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:51 am Greed certainly was a factor in the decision to push the weather to get the aircraft home.
Flight schools want their aircraft back on time.
That may be true, but is it known whether there was a daily rate in place for the aircraft, or whether the planes were booked the next day, or are you just assuming there were no arrangements available due to weather delays?
rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:51 am Those issues need to be addressed in court, including why TC allows flight schools to operate unnecessary flights of this kind.
Are you suggesting that TC monitor every flight, or that there can never be a flight done that doesn't exist in some syllabus?
rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:51 am I continue to be shocked this flight school remains in existence. The courts are a necessary and corrective avenue to punish poor behaviour.
If i'm not mistaken, the courts exist to settle disputes. Punishment may or may not enter into the matter.
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