Air Tindi Flight Missing

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1948
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by goingnowherefast »

Donald wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:11 pm The other rumour, that bothers me greatly, is that the FO instruments had been faulty for some time. Not “discovered on the taxi out” of the accident flight. Supposedly crews had been complaining (snagging?) about them, but obviously to no avail.
If this proves to be true, then this could be an eye opening investigation. This sort of crap is common in the 703 world. Though typically not with something as important as primary flight instruments.

I remember a very similar situation years ago for a different 703 company, but with prop heat and respectable icing conditions. Captain was a get-er-done type and hesitant to say no. I nicely told him that I wasn't getting in the airplane. We sure heard about that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by valleyboy »

possibly an argument for standardizing equipment and crew rules. When I flew 2 otter under 703 always had a stby horizon. Too many end runs is 703 ops. I find it totally ironic that the largely entry level of aviation operations operates under the slackest rules.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by daedalusx »

Its too bad. Those new all in one digital EADI are dirt cheap and they offer so much ... How long until those become mandatory like TAWS/EGPWS/TCAS ?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/ ... cfer=13982
---------- ADS -----------
 
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
User avatar
TheRealMcCoy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:58 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

Roadrunnersmother wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm Did these guys have instrument ratings?
In the ground 84 seconds after no attitude indicators. Mind blowing they couldn't keep in air with rest of instrumentation.
Must be more to it than this. Basic altimeter and DG for straight and level in IMC will keep you alive.
Quite the training program this air tindi has.
Dude, or dudette, just stop. What an exceptionally rude and cunty thing to say towards two dead men.
---------- ADS -----------
 
godsrcrazy
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 840
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:12 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by godsrcrazy »

Amazes how people think this would be such an easy situation that could have been prevented with a turn bank indictor and a altimeter. For anyone that has flown in a situation were you can barely see your wing tip it isn't that easy. To begin with when you are on decent and realize the one and only attitude indicator has failed you could be in any attitude. Trying to figure out if you are right side up could be impossible. I wouldn't be quick to judge the pilots for not recovering.

Saying that i have a hard time believing in today day and age of MELS SMS and everything else anyone would depart in that day.
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by C.W.E. »

Amazes how people think this would be such an easy situation that could have been prevented with a turn bank indictor and a altimeter. For anyone that has flown in a situation were you can barely see your wing tip it isn't that easy.
Agreed, you also need an airspeed indicator as well as a T&B and altimeter.
---------- ADS -----------
 
godsrcrazy
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 840
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:12 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by godsrcrazy »

C.W.E. wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 6:07 pm
Amazes how people think this would be such an easy situation that could have been prevented with a turn bank indictor and a altimeter. For anyone that has flown in a situation were you can barely see your wing tip it isn't that easy.
Agreed, you also need an airspeed indicator as well as a T&B and altimeter.
I agree its mandatory for every aircraft to have these items. Still doesn't help when you chase a failing attitude indictor then try and figure out what attitude the aircraft is at.

The interesting part now will be to see what TC and all the winning companies do. I am thinking nothing. Years ago First air lawn darted a 737 loaded with pax in YZF and wrote it off. They then landed a 737 in YEG between the runway and taxi way lights. The mines did nothing cause they needed the Herc. Buffalo crashed a DC4 with fuel drums in Ulu and they were banned from flying anything for the mines.
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by C.W.E. »

I agree its mandatory for every aircraft to have these items. Still doesn't help when you chase a failing attitude indictor then try and figure out what attitude the aircraft is at.
You will have to take into consideration my comments are based on having learned to fly in the mid fifties and recovery from unusual attitudes on limited panel ( Airspeed, Turn and bank indicator and airspeed indicator ) was part of the training for the commercial license. If we could not demonstrate we could recover from unusual attitudes using that method we did not receive a commercial license.

And it was done using two stage amber as the means to block any outside visual clues and the training airplane I learned on was the Cessna 140.

Also when taking the ride for the instrument rating we had to be able to understand morse code.

Were we improperly trained?

Still doesn't help when you chase a failing attitude indictor then try and figure out what attitude the aircraft is at.
Maybe if you are doing that you are missing the full picture???
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
telex
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by telex »

youhavecontrol wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:08 pm "According to Jeremy Warkentin, technical investigator for the TSB, one attitude indicator wasn't functioning when the flight took off, but the crew flew anyway. The second indicator failed 84 seconds before impact."

Oh geez
178 seconds to live. On average. Google it if you need to.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
YBW-Kid
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:51 pm

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by YBW-Kid »

Does it not make sense to include partial panel in every IFR check ride? To include regular refresher partial panel training. It's something one seldom gets to practice and when you need the skills- you really need the skills.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Illya Kuryakin
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1311
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:14 pm
Location: The Gulag Archipelago

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

All this talk of lack of training, how the crew should have made it ......well, before we get carried away, there was an instance a few years back where a real live AIRLINE CREW, stalled a modern wide bodied jetliner through thirty thousand feet into the south Atlantic Ocean...because their pitot tubes froze. Yup. Pitot tubes. Loss of airspeed. That was IT. Instead of selecting cruise thrust, and more or less, a cruise deck angle......these rocket scientists became, what I like to call, The Air France Swim Team.

How do you defend yourselves against an Air Tindi occurance? MEL. Read it. If you need TWO, fix it. If one restricts you to VMC, stay visual.
In all cases, even if it's not in an MEL, or if it is, try to imagine having the second one pack it in. If you're not comfortable with loosing both, park it.
Fly safe.
Illya
---------- ADS -----------
 
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Daniel Cooper »

From what I see on a googled King Air 200 MEL you don't need 2 working attitude indicators unless a second in command is required. No offense to King Air first officers but I don't they are required. Correct me if I'm wrong.
---------- ADS -----------
 
cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by cncpc »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 7:13 am From what I see on a googled King Air 200 MEL you don't need 2 working attitude indicators unless a second in command is required. No offense to King Air first officers but I don't they are required. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm fairly sure that you need to have a fully functioning autopilot for single pilot IFR. If you don't, then a FO is required by Transport Canada.

The company may specify two crew in its ops manual, regardless of whether it is a single pilot certified aircraft. So, I'd say that is also case where two crew are "required" and hence the need for a second AI.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
cncpc
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by cncpc »

Roadrunnersmother wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:33 pm Did these guys have instrument ratings?
In the ground 84 seconds after no attitude indicators. Mind blowing they couldn't keep in air with rest of instrumentation.
Must be more to it than this. Basic altimeter and DG for straight and level in IMC will keep you alive.
Quite the training program this air tindi has.
I suspect the loss of AI would have affected the autopilot unless they were hand flying. That then would add recognition time to the mix and eaten into the 84 seconds they had.

I agree, must be more to it than this.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Meatservo
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2565
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
Location: Negative sequencial vortex

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Meatservo »

Well, we don't know if this particular aircraft was equipped with turn&bank indicators, a battery-driven standby horizon, or what. Did the autopilot cause an unusual attitude as the horizon failed, before disengaging, or were the pilots hand-flying, did the instrument fail suddenly or slowly, we don't know any of this.

It's all very well to boast of your prowess at recognizing and correcting unusual attitudes with your turn&bank indicator, but the distracting presence of a dead horizon rolling around like Sammy Davis jr's left eye, maybe an unusual attitude to start things off, I don't know, sounds shitty. I was stuck in thick forest-fire smoke in a beaver many years ago, and the D.G. stopped working. The horizon, turn and bank, everything else worked fine, but that damn D.G. slowly turning this way and that, and not turning when I was trying to turn, contributed to a powerful vertigo that I had trouble with. I had nothing to cover it with. Nowhere near as debilitating as a horizon going tits-up, which has also happened to me and is really no fun.

Lots of planes these days don't even have a turn&bank indicator. If you lost both horizons in one of those, you'd have nothing left.
---------- ADS -----------
 
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
User avatar
youhavecontrol
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 397
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:17 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by youhavecontrol »

telex wrote: Wed May 01, 2019 7:21 pm
youhavecontrol wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:08 pm "According to Jeremy Warkentin, technical investigator for the TSB, one attitude indicator wasn't functioning when the flight took off, but the crew flew anyway. The second indicator failed 84 seconds before impact."

Oh geez
178 seconds to live. On average. Google it if you need to.
"You can hear the wind tearing your aircraft... you see the ground... you open your mouth to scream, but you've run out of seconds"
Pretty sure I know most of that script by memory now.
---------- ADS -----------
 
"I found that Right Rudder you kept asking for."
bobcaygeon
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 681
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by bobcaygeon »

Daniel Cooper wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 7:13 am From what I see on a googled King Air 200 MEL you don't need 2 working attitude indicators unless a second in command is required. No offense to King Air first officers but I don't they are required. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You can MEL the Copilot's AI if you have a functioning autopilot because the CARs don't require an FO if you have an autopilot in a 703 a B200.
B200 MMEL.JPG
B200 MMEL.JPG (29.7 KiB) Viewed 4174 times
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Daniel Cooper »

So if the above poster that stated the Captain's side was EFIS does that mean the aircraft was not airworthy?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by daedalusx »

Doesn’t matter. Air Tindi does not operate their 200s single pilot. The capts don’t do single pilot PPCs. If it left the ground with the right side ADI u/s then it wasn’t airworthy.
---------- ADS -----------
 
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: Air Tindi Flight Missing

Post by Daniel Cooper »

daedalusx wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:19 pm Doesn’t matter. Air Tindi does not operate their 200s single pilot. The capts don’t do single pilot PPCs. If it left the ground with the right side ADI u/s then it wasn’t airworthy.
Air Tindi's president seems to agree with you.
https://nnsl.com/yellowknifer/key-fligh ... ndi-crash/
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”