And there you have it.
Illya
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
And there you have it.
Do you have the whole article?Daniel Cooper wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 5:20 pm Air Tindi's president seems to agree with you.
https://nnsl.com/yellowknifer/key-fligh ... ndi-crash/
Has the TSB said where they got the 84 seconds figure from? If it was internally recorded by the instrument then you can consider however long it took to notice but if it came from the CVR then that would be the actual time of recognition.
I can't be everywhere at once. The thought of this keeps me up at night.
I only see this getting worse. 2 months ago, nobody was afraid for their job, and people still did stuff like this.Donald wrote: ↑Thu May 02, 2019 9:40 pm So were the pilots "give'ers" for flying a broken plane, or was the company "pushers" for not fixing known defects and asking crews to go?
In a perfect world, we know the correct answer (hardest thing about flying...).
But this is 703 northern flying with low-timers, and instances where companies take advantage.
"Creative operators" aren't going to learn anything from this report - none of the TSB's findings related to any kind of pressure from Air Tindi to undertake flights, or pointed so much as a finger at the operator's maintenance practices or operational controls. Sadly, this accident appears to be attributable 100% to pilots not dealing appropriately with a dual AI failure:digits_ wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:00 am I only see this getting worse. 2 months ago, nobody was afraid for their job, and people still did stuff like this.
Now you have the same low time pilots, but afraid for their jobs -if they still have them-, making it harder to say no again.
Things will get nasty. Hopefully all creative operators have read the accident report.
In an accident like this, where there are no passengers hurt, would the TSB interview other employees? If they only focus on company produced paperwork, chances are they wouldn't find company faults.YYZSaabGuy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:38 am"Creative operators" aren't going to learn anything from this report - none of the TSB's findings related to any kind of pressure from Air Tindi to undertake flights, or pointed so much as a finger at the operator's maintenance practices or operational controls. Sadly, this accident appears to be attributable 100% to pilots not dealing appropriately with a dual AI failure:digits_ wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:00 am I only see this getting worse. 2 months ago, nobody was afraid for their job, and people still did stuff like this.
Now you have the same low time pilots, but afraid for their jobs -if they still have them-, making it harder to say no again.
Things will get nasty. Hopefully all creative operators have read the accident report.
Fair point. I have no idea about the level of interviews the TSB undertook. I do question, though, whether there would've been pressure of any kind to dispatch an empty aircraft.digits_ wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:57 amIn an accident like this, where there are no passengers hurt, would the TSB interview other employees? If they only focus on company produced paperwork, chances are they wouldn't find company faults.YYZSaabGuy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:38 am"Creative operators" aren't going to learn anything from this report - none of the TSB's findings related to any kind of pressure from Air Tindi to undertake flights, or pointed so much as a finger at the operator's maintenance practices or operational controls. Sadly, this accident appears to be attributable 100% to pilots not dealing appropriately with a dual AI failure:digits_ wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:00 am I only see this getting worse. 2 months ago, nobody was afraid for their job, and people still did stuff like this.
Now you have the same low time pilots, but afraid for their jobs -if they still have them-, making it harder to say no again.
Things will get nasty. Hopefully all creative operators have read the accident report.
Your call, but I think there is more than enough in this particular TSB report to chew over and consider without adding unfounded speculation about other factors (or other operators, for that matter) that the TSB neither identified nor attributed as being relevant to this accident. But hey, if speculation is your thing, fill your boots.digits_ wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:16 am From what I've seen (not necessarily at Air Tindi), is that pressure is seldom linked to one flight. It's a culture thing. A company wants you to go when you can, a company questions you when you snag a plane, things like that. Also, if a flight was unimportant, it wouldn't have been dispatched to begin with.
*speculation*
Not snagging the broken attitude indicator could imply they were expecting a "ground tested serviceable" reply. There might not have been pressure from the operations team, it could have been a lack of faith in the maintenance department.
If someting has intermittent snags, and they never get fixed but always signed out with a "no faults found"- variety, in the end one will stop snaging things like that.
This is a big question that isn't answered - was the aircraft equipped with a turn coordinator or turn and bank indicator?
I'm pretty sure that if a IFR aircraft is equipped with 2 Attitude Indicators with separate power supplies, there is no requirement for a standby AI, T&B indicator, Turn Coordinator, or even a ball.GoinVertical wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:46 pmThis is a big question that isn't answered - was the aircraft equipped with a turn coordinator or turn and bank indicator?
Anyone at Tindi or have access to someone who is or their KA MEL?
I don't think it's reasonable to expect anyone to be able to fly IMC with just heading, airspeed, and altitude.
I don't know what the culture is like at Tindi's 703 op, but from the report it really sounds like the captain expected the FO's attitude indicator to come to life eventually. Anyone who has experience with vacuum driven gyros in the cold has seen this.
The decision to not wait for the aircraft to warm up and the gyro to come to life before departure is where it all went wrong. The question is why that decision was made.