Atlas Air 767

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Heliian
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Heliian »

PostmasterGeneral wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:58 am
AirportCoffee wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am
Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Not when the system is flawed and people these days are hired in order to meet some sort of “diversity” quota instead of being hired based on their credentials and ability.
Probably only because Atlas didn't want to pay for better talent. I don't see how your "diversity" agenda plays in this but you come off sounding like a racist bigot.
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Old fella
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Old fella »

AirportCoffee wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am
Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Indeed. With this individual’s checkered past and a demonstrated ability not to meet training standards with past employers, that would certainly follow him as he moved around. Not that I know much on large aircraft operations be they airlines or cargo haulers but was flabbergasted such a person was able to slip through the training cracks undetected until sadly......
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ReserveTank
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank »

Old fella wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:52 am
AirportCoffee wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:39 am
Yikes. You would think the system would catch up to him sooner or later with all of those failures :rolleyes:
Indeed. With this individual’s checkered past and a demonstrated ability not to meet training standards with past employers, that would certainly follow him as he moved around. Not that I know much on large aircraft operations be they airlines or cargo haulers but was flabbergasted such a person was able to slip through the training cracks undetected until sadly......
Heliian wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:00 am
Probably only because Atlas didn't want to pay for better talent. I don't see how your "diversity" agenda plays in this...
The reason he got through is answered in your own questions. If you know anything about any industry down south, aviation included, you'll understand that diversity drives the wages which drives the training programs. Airlines like Atlas force these guys through because they know he won't bother them about contract obligations, bonuses, pensions, etc. Cheaper to run him through the sim 6 more times and give him copious amounts of OE than to make contracts with competent people. If anyone has the diversity agenda, it's the industry.
At another ACMI, I watched them force guys through with 100 hours of OE, and they still had marginal performance on the aircraft. The check airmen were frustrated because they received edicts to "just get the check done." It's always the same type of guys. That's how it really is...no one is being bigoted. You just haven't seen it for yourself.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by goingnowherefast »

I've seen white guys shoved through line checks too. Race doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. The company needs more pilots, they've already invested $X training dollars on extra sim sessions and extended line indoc, so just get it over with and get them flying the line.
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pelmet
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by pelmet »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:24 am
I've seen white guys shoved through line checks too. Race doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.
What about the hiring process?
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by goingnowherefast »

Management accidently hires crap candidates on ocassion. HR botches the reference check, candidate exaggerates on resume or in interview, etc. I haven't seen an abnormal number of any race hired.
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co-joe
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by co-joe »

jpilot77 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:41 am
Looks like inadvertent TOGA activation and the FO thinking they were about to stall. He then pushed to a 40 degree nose down attitude. ...
Iv'e stalled one or two aircraft, never heard of one where 40 degrees nose down was required. What's the normal stall recovery pitch in the 767?
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jpilot77
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by jpilot77 »

No it isn’t
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pelmet
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by pelmet »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:08 am
Management accidently hires crap candidates on ocassion. HR botches the reference check, candidate exaggerates on resume or in interview, etc. I haven't seen an abnormal number of any race hired.
Nice attempt at an excuse to try and brush this under the carpet but it is too important to do so....

"Pilot Records Improvement Act of 1996 (PRIA)
PRIA requires that a hiring air carrier under 14 CFR parts 121 and 135, or a hiring air operator under 14 CFR part 125, request, receive, and evaluate certain information concerning a pilot/applicant’s training, experience, qualification, and safety background, before allowing that individual to begin service as a pilot with their company."


There was no botching the reference check. HR knew exactly the recorded training record of this person that they were hiring. I guarantee you there were other resumes in the pile for a widebody jet operation with 747's.

I know, I sound like a racist.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Eric Janson »

co-joe wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:46 pm
jpilot77 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:41 am
Looks like inadvertent TOGA activation and the FO thinking they were about to stall. He then pushed to a 40 degree nose down attitude. ...
Iv'e stalled one or two aircraft, never heard of one where 40 degrees nose down was required. What's the normal stall recovery pitch in the 767?
It's not so much about the stall but about the brain interpreting acceleration as the aircraft pitching up.

A very good explanation here.

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/av ... c-illusion
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stone69
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by stone69 »

In response to co-joe...."Iv'e stalled one or two aircraft, never heard of one where 40 degrees nose down was required. What's the normal stall recovery pitch in the 767? " It's been a while, but the procedure in the 767 was to apply max thrust and lower the nose... smoothly to about five degrees above the horizon and level the wings. At higher altitudes the pitch would be less than five degrees and if done above thirty thousand, it required a slight nose down attitude to allow for acceleration... no more than a couple of degrees and nowhere near forty degrees....
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Inverted2
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Inverted2 »

Although tragic as this accident is, I know of a person who fits this F/O’s description and past training records to a “T” and is now flying boxes around as well.

I don’t know if you omit past employers your failures still show up through FAA or TC checks.
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Braun
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Braun »

stone69 wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:59 am
In response to co-joe...."Iv'e stalled one or two aircraft, never heard of one where 40 degrees nose down was required. What's the normal stall recovery pitch in the 767? " It's been a while, but the procedure in the 767 was to apply max thrust and lower the nose... smoothly to about five degrees above the horizon and level the wings. At higher altitudes the pitch would be less than five degrees and if done above thirty thousand, it required a slight nose down attitude to allow for acceleration... no more than a couple of degrees and nowhere near forty degrees....
Wow, that makes it even crazier. How can someone rated on B767 pitch 40 degrees nose down to recover from a stall if the recovery is as you stated.
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telex
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex »

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yycflyguy
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by yycflyguy »

That's interesting to see. AC SOP for stall recovery is AP/AT OFF, lower the nose to break the stall before increasing thrust. The logic was that with the massive under slung engines, increasing the thrust exacerbates the nose high pitch so they wanted to esure the wing was flying first. This technique is complicated at low altitudes without the recovery time of altitude.
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Eric Janson
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Eric Janson »

The aircraft didn't stall.

TOGA was selected and the resulting rapid acceleration was interpreted as a pitch-up by the PF.

He then pushed forward instinctively which increased acceleration even more which the PF interpreted as the nose still pitching up resulting in him pushing the nose down even more.

This accident has nothing to do with stall or stall recovery imho.

It's Somatogravic Illusion.
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