Atlas Air 767

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av8ts
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by av8ts » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 am

Something tells me that this investigation is going to go quiet til the final report
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Heliian
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Heliian » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:32 am

sounds like the autopilot went into antistall or go around and the elevator failed.

Turbulence broke the old plane and it crashed.
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telex
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 am

Heliian wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:32 am
sounds like the autopilot went into antistall or go around and the elevator failed.

Turbulence broke the old plane and it crashed.
Can you expand on the antistall system and it's operation?

Is go around also a function? 6000' seems like an odd place for a go around?
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Heliian
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Heliian » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:57 am

telex wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 am
Heliian wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:32 am
sounds like the autopilot went into antistall or go around and the elevator failed.

Turbulence broke the old plane and it crashed.
Can you expand on the antistall system and it's operation?

Is go around also a function? 6000' seems like an odd place for a go around?
no, i was just making something up as per the previous comment.

However, the quick release from ntsb said they hit turbulence and shortly after nose dived.
Why else would throttles go full?
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telex
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:02 am

Heliian wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:57 am
telex wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 am
Heliian wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:32 am
sounds like the autopilot went into antistall or go around and the elevator failed.

Turbulence broke the old plane and it crashed.
Can you expand on the antistall system and it's operation?

Is go around also a function? 6000' seems like an odd place for a go around?
no, i was just making something up as per the previous comment.

However, the quick release from ntsb said they hit turbulence and shortly after nose dived.
Why else would throttles go full?
Does turbulence and a nose dive usually command full thrust?

I think it would be unusual for autothrottle to remain at full thrust in a nose dive?
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lostaviator
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by lostaviator » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:07 am

telex wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:02 am
Heliian wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:57 am
telex wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:45 am
Can you expand on the antistall system and it's operation?

Is go around also a function? 6000' seems like an odd place for a go around?
no, i was just making something up as per the previous comment.

However, the quick release from ntsb said they hit turbulence and shortly after nose dived.
Why else would throttles go full?
Does turbulence and a nose dive usually command full thrust?

I think it would be unusual for autothrottle to remain at full thrust in a nose dive?
Unless it was intentional.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:02 pm

Power causes most aircraft to pitch upward. Flight control problem, can't control pitch, so worth a shot with power. I could see it as a last ditch effort to try and save the day.

Hypothetical discussion, I know nothing of the actual details.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by C-GGGQ » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 pm

LETUN wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 am
From NTSB, released today:
. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video (figure 4) captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent.
Seems to say it all right there....
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 pm
LETUN wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 am
From NTSB, released today:
. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video (figure 4) captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent.
Seems to say it all right there....
Possibly left the speed brake deployed from the crossing restriction. What speed does the 767 maintain if doing a LVL CHG? 245?
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:04 pm

ReserveTank wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 pm
LETUN wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 am
From NTSB, released today:
. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video (figure 4) captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent.
Seems to say it all right there....
Possibly left the speed brake deployed from the crossing restriction. What speed does the 767 maintain if doing a LVL CHG? 245?
It maintains whatever speed is selected in the speed window.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by C-GGGQ » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:24 pm

ReserveTank wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pm
C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 pm
LETUN wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 am
From NTSB, released today:
. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video (figure 4) captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent.
Seems to say it all right there....
Possibly left the speed brake deployed from the crossing restriction. What speed does the 767 maintain if doing a LVL CHG? 245?
It was the 49 degree nose down in response to control input. Not the 230 kts I was pointing to...
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pelmet
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by pelmet » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:10 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 pm
LETUN wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:48 am
From NTSB, released today:
. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate.

FDR, radar, and ADS-B data indicated that the airplane entered a rapid descent on a heading of 270°, reaching an airspeed of about 430 knots. A security camera video (figure 4) captured the airplane in a steep, generally wings-level attitude until impact with the swamp. FDR data indicated that the airplane gradually pitched up to about 20 degrees nose down during the descent.
Seems to say it all right there....
I have been worried about this.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Heliian » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:05 am

If you read the previous posts or reread the current linked article it was changed to read "elevator deflection" and not "column input".

If it was intentional, I'm sure you'll hear the other two people in the cockpit fighting it and case closed. If you hear all 3 wondering what the @#$! happened, then it would be something else.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Bede » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:12 pm

This accident has me worried. Jump seater from other airline. Reminds me of fedex in the 80’s. I really hope that my fears are wrong.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:23 pm

Bede wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:12 pm
This accident has me worried. Jump seater from other airline. Reminds me of fedex in the 80’s. I really hope that my fears are wrong.
The jump seater just got hired at a major (American?) and was supposed to start ground school shortly.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ogc » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:13 am

telex wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:23 pm
Bede wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:12 pm
This accident has me worried. Jump seater from other airline. Reminds me of fedex in the 80’s. I really hope that my fears are wrong.
The jump seater just got hired at a major (American?) and was supposed to start ground school shortly.
United. They gave him his wings and left his seat empty in the class.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Gino Under » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:23 am

Looks like pilot induced loss of control.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Old fella » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:41 am

Gino Under wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:23 am
Looks like pilot induced loss of control.
Elaborate and the source?
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:52 am

Take it for what it's worth...

"Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking."
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:59 am

Same being reported by wall street journal, business Insider etc. Just not in quite that graphic detail.
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by tbaylx » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:27 am

telex wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:52 am
Take it for what it's worth...

"Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking."
How does one accidentally hit the toga buttons going for flaps?
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by FL_CH » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:31 am

The switches do happen to be on the backside of the throttle levers on the 767:

Image
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:34 am

Doesn't the 767 have a "Go Around" annunciation or something similar on the PFD?
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:38 am

That seems like an awkward set up for the toga switch...
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Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 am

ReserveTank wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:34 am
Doesn't the 767 have a "Go Around" annunciation or something similar on the PFD?
GA will become active in pitch and roll. Annunciated on the Flight Mode Annunciator.
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